to think the 'common law/freeman on the land' thing is a whole load of bollocks?

[qwertypop]

I've come across a few people over the last few years that take it very seriously and bang on at length about how the police and courts have no authority over them as they are self declared 'freemen'. Something to do with common law being the only true law in Britain, I think? And not having to wear bike helmets or pay for TV licenses or repay your debts also seem important to the ones I've had the dubious pleasure of meeting.

A couple I met at the weekend have taken the biscuit though and not registered their baby's birth because apparently this will mean said baby grows up to be a 'freeman' (she's actually a girl but the term appears to be freeman anyway). They believe quite firmly that to register her birth will mean that the law assumes her and her name (which is a fucking corker, of course) are one and the same and that only by NOT registering her birth can she be free to be a human being. Quite what this actually means is a mystery to me and tbh the mumbo jumbo they gave me by way of an answer leads me to suspect they don't really know either

I've tried to read up on it but all the info I can find is written in a style you'd expect of an paranoid, delusional, and possibly hallucinating chimpanzee let loose with a legal dictionary.

So AIBU to think this is bollocky woo of the most fucking ridiculous type? Or is someone going to come along and actually enlighten me as to wtf its all about, preferably in plain English with no pseudo-legalese?

[calmet]

Just wow!

[Micqdc]

nomorequotes - yes as I have explained before obviously a lawyer would say that.

here is some maximums of law

Laws are abrogated or repealed by the same authority by which they are made.

legality is not reality.

it is a miserable slavery where the law is vague or uncertain.

no one is bound to do what is impossible.

also I believe their is one that says that older laws are more enforceable than new laws.

[Micqdc]

meditrina - have you looked into this? magic? really? don't believe everything your hear on TV or read on wiki

LisaMed - im sorry my logic and rationality doesn't fit in with you false scope of reality.

[nomorequotes]

But you are talking about laws which have nothing to do with our modern society.

Anything you want to get discussed can be in parliament if you petition and get the right amount of people who say they want it discussed.

I will ask again, what are YOU doing to change things? We live in a democracy, it only takes one person to instill change. If you really believe cannabis can cure cancer, then why not take that further and be the change? I can get on board with many of the free thinking ideals but I cannot get past that massive hurdle, that the people thinking freely are selfishly neglecting to change anything about the world.

[FrequentFlyerRandomDent]

Thank you everyone. This thread is better than sci-fi.

It is a shame I have to leave to pick up my real human beings from their holistic education retreats.

Wishing you well.

[nomorequotes]

I think as is clear from the numbers of people who have witnessed such court proceedings taking place, that it quite possible to enforce modern laws

[LisaMed]

Most of the time I am okay about live and let live and we all have the right to believe in crazy things - I believe that Liverpool are a great team and that England may get as far as the quarter finals in the World Cup.

It upsets me when people do not have a clear insight into history as it shows us where we are and how we got here. Understanding that there were intense arguments between canon law and common law is important. People used references to previous practice and the edicts of kings to prove their point and that led to using the law as the final solution, not violence. It's not perfect, it really isn't, but it is pretty good compared to a lot of places and a lot of times in history.

I also get upset about the claims for things like cannabis oil. Honestly, if they worked then a corporation would have patented it. They want the money, you see. People, however, believe the snake oil salesmen and die for lack of easily available effective treatment.

Micqdc - forget about everything else. If you have cancer then even if you cut out the main tumour there are still cancerous cells migrating around your system. That is why there is often a main tumour plus secondary tumours. It wasn't the main tumour in my mother's breast that killed her, it was the secondary in her lungs. Even if you are kidding around, even if you are faking about your belief in cancer, I am putting this down because there are people out there who have died because of misinformation like this.

[GemmaPuddledDuck]

I would be suspicous of anyone not registering a birth as it gives them a child to what they want with and no one will notice.

[LisaMed]

Micqdc - I have not criticised your logic and rationality. I am criticising your grasp of history as available in many basic textbooks.

btw - maxims are not legally binding. The maxims are nice. I can't argue with them. It still means that you are bound by the laws of England and Wales if you are within their geographical territory.

[Micqdc]

nomorequotes - well for a start a democracy is the will of the people and you can always leave the democracy, then how can tell you what to do if you ant apart of it?

as for changing things im apart of a movement called the law movement which is set to teach people real law, also im apart of a group of people on this website //www.deanclifford.info who have a divestment plan where we will divest from the system and start our own one.

so as for change we are trying loads of thing and its going quite well.

now just to clarify something, everything I have said is my opinion you can look at the links ive put up if you want but if not then that's fine.

now could we continue this civilly without calling people names and saying i need to go seek medical care.

[SatNavMan]

Thank God there are some people here who understand history, law, biology, medicine etc as opposed to wishful thinking and self-deluded woo.

Who would have thought a Freeman could offer such great entertainment? If Hardy and Willis turn up we may as well all move to fucking Narnia.

[Micqdc]

LisaMed - please understand the UK is a nation and not a country and not a geographical location.

as for history watch that video a put in one of my comments before, you will enjoy it if you like history, he is coming from book which where written from people that where their at that time.

the video is the one called law and language.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

mic, please stop trying to teach lisa history, it's painful to watch.

You don't know anything about it, do you?

[LisaMed]

If you have symptoms of cancer then you need to get appropriate, qualified medical care. I am not qualifying that statement. Your views on history make me want to cry, but don't mean that you need medical care.

However your views on cancer as written are really, really worrying.

My experience with the legal system is working for 12 years at a County Court. They would need a lot more rigorous arguments than you have presented. They are more concerned with what is actually happening than you would think.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Btw, since you're so keen on this idea of 'freemen' going back to the Middle Ages, tell me, d'you believe in aliens?

[LisaMed]

Any nation state has a geographical location.

In the Middle Ages a person was part of a kingdom or lordship that was attached to a ruler. It was not defined by geography but by the person to who an individual owed allegiance. That is not the same now. Everyone in the world accepts that a nation state is located within geographical borders. If you go to China you will be tried by the laws of China if you are accused of wrongdoing. You cannot claim to be tried by anything else. That's just how it is.

I need to go and sort out my seven year old, so I can't keep up for a bit. I think I need the break.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

But not nation states that exist only in my mind, lisa. Respect the freedom of my mind.

Enjoy some rational conversation with the seven year old.

[YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime]

that dean Clifford bloke's website mic is linking to has a copyright symbol!

[SatNavMan]

People have tried presenting these Freeman on the Land arguments in courts. Actual real life courts in this dimension administered by human beings not Moomins.

Visit RationalWiki and search for "freeman on the land" - it lists those court appearances and their outcomes. The number of successful outcomes of these spurious arguments is impressive. If you find zeroes impressive.

The thing is, all these arguments can be quite compelling in conversation with sympathetic hearers (and by the way a police officer can't arrest you if they're not carrying a bale of hay, it's the law going back to 1130 etc) and if you omit any real historical understanding or context. But they don't stand up in any real sense. Tell some Judge in a courtroom that you dismiss the court using your rights as a sovereign entity and the best you can hope for is amusement.

[MiniTheMinx]

"Man is born free, yet he is everywhere in chains"

and nothing changes, if anything the authority of the state, a state that serves minority interests grows because it goes on questioned and unchallenged.

[frankblackswife]

m.youtube.com/watch?v=BCqMbbLCIg0

Have a gander at this Eejit.
It did the rounds a while ago - totally made me cringe, he just comes across as an arrogant dickhead.

[Spero]

I am just marking my place because I really need to come back and read this carefully later - I am seeing a marked increase in people in family courts who demand that the judge produce his oath of office for eg, then they refuse to sit down as they don't accept the courts jurisdiction...

[ComeHeather]

This is the best bloody thread in ages!

I feel like I've entered a whole new world of unreal. Before this the best I'd had was a colleague who thought the Da Vinci code was true fact.

Lisa...totally loving your work here. Do you need more tea?

[MiniTheMinx]

The nation state is a social construct, it creates the need for a state, which in turn serves minority interests. And no I'm not a woo. In fact I think this Freeman crap-a-doodle is a waste of space, but it should be acknowledged that 2/3rds of laws are in relation to property rights. The biggest lie perpetrated against us, is the idea that there is no natural law. Read Hobbes/Locke.

[nomorequotes]

what happens normally in that situation Spero?