... to think that psychiatry is a bit of a con ...?

[Rommell]

... hidebound as it is by cultural and societal norms. Yet it posits that the criteria it creates are truths as to who is 'well' and who is not. How can a person's mind, their psyche, their being be 'ill' anyway? Plus if it really were possible for a drug to produce 'correct' thinking, then the person who created it would be ruler of the world.

[andsmile]

Im not aware of what you refer to giddy

I started reading for cognitive pyschology recently. Without going into complicted scienecy stuff, even some of the readings recorded during brain scans have room for error of interpretation. They cannot always pinpoint area of activity exactly during scanning.

They cannot prove the processes involved but correlate areas of activity along with other biochemical data.

Other problems with these types of study are the expense and therefore getting large enough sample sizes to rule out probablities and anomolies to provide mroe relaiable evidence.

[MiscellaneousAssortment]

I have found that there is a false supposition around medicine in general - that it's a 'complete science' and people tend to expect consultants and specialists to have the answer. And that often goes for the consultant or specialist themselves (!).

And it's very easy to dismiss the patient as awkward, wrong, or making it up when they don't fit within the limited amount of knowledge we do have. Patient blaming happens alot - by doctors, medics of all kinds and the general public.

People don't mean to, it's a reaction to the unknown, but it's deeply hurtful for the person being blamed, and keeps the status quo rather than provoking a spirit of progress and enquiry.

[Feartheescalator]

OP - are you a scientologist or perhaps a member of the citizens commission for human rights?

[Puff1ns]

Bless you! Well said.

[happygirl87]

Haven't RTFT (cardinal sin) but I know that in a patient with depression, the fluid extracted in a lumbar puncture is chemically different than if they didn't have depression. That is an example of a mental illness, due to a medical problem in the brain, which can be alleviated by the right medication.

[SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius]

I didn't know that, happygirl - that is really interesting. I've had depression most of my life - and medication has helped in the past, though I am trying CBT at the moment. Which I wouldn't have access to, were it not for psychiatry - the discipline the OP despises so much.

[Mitchy1nge]

really, I think anyone who has been detained, experienced that total loss of liberty without having committed any crime and had physical restraints used against them and had medication forcibly administered (and in the UK there are MASSIVE regional variations in the use of restraints, some trusts much much fonder of it than others so it's not always a pure clinical need type decision) is entitled to feel bitter about and question aspects of psychological medicine

obviously some people are grateful for being sectioned but some are not, and it is ridiculous to assert that it never happens needlessly - appeals succeed often (although not many patients are helped to exercise this right)

[HarveySchlumpfenburger]

There's a huge difference between questioning aspects of psychological care and deciding that psychiatry as a whole is as con though.

SDT it's not the neurotransmitters involved that can be measured but some of their metabolites can be. There is some small scale evidence from lumbar punctures that those metabolites are present in smaller amounts in the cerebrospinal fluid of those with depression.

[Mitchy1nge]

exciting as these bio-marker discoveries might be I hope CSF analysis doesn't become diagnostic - squeamish and ouchy

[Mitchy1nge]

it doesn't sound very specific yet

but I am glad we're adding to our biological understanding, am not anti-psychiatry but have no difficulty appreciating why someone else might be

[FreudiansSlipper]

A blood test for depression that is worrying

the chemical imbalance has largely been disputed over the last few years in regards to low and moderate depression

Simple fact is so much is unknown what is worrying is when these are presented as facts, for so long ad's was sold to the public as correcting the chemical imbalance of the brain

There are a few good books out there challanging psychiatry and the way it seems to be heading

[Serenitysutton]

This is a very interesting theory; I completely agree in 100 years time the way we treat disorders of the mind/ brain today will be considered barbaric. I think it's clear even to a lay person who has done a little reading that we know very little about disorders of the mind/ brain therefore I think it's only logical to be open to theories which shake the very foundations of current beliefs and treatments.

Obviously many people have seen their mental illnesses improve/ cured by modern medicine but that's almost meaningless. This is about the whole macro environment- is modern medicine causing or contributing to the severity of some if these situations? Could they be cured faster and or better by other methods? No one really knows but surely you have to be open to it? Also it's fascinating.

[Brittapieandchips]

People saying this kind of shit once persuaded me to stop taking my meds. I ended up terrified, in a police car on the way to hospital, convinced that I was being chased by demons and that i had been poisoned, and was seriously ill for months.

I am fully aware that the meds I have taken and currently take (and will most probably do for the rest if my life) mean I have a shorter life expectancy and some fairly terrible side effects. But they reduce my symptoms to a point where I can be a mother and be alive at all.

And yes, when people die, sometimes you can dissect their brain and find evidence of mental illness, just like you can with epilepsy.

[FreudiansSlipper]

I agree with treatments shall be by different in the future we should question every diagnosis and accept that it may change at some point


Problem is we are a society that needs answers and at times there is not an answer

[Mitchy1nge]

I think we have to take personal responsibility for our own decisions to take/not take meds!

am pissed off, obviously, about taking chlorpromazine for years and ending up on the brink of obesity at one point (was definitely overweight anyway) because my consultant insisted it was necessary (it's not, am ok just taking lithium) but ultimately I was in charge of what went into my mouth!

similarly have had periods without meds and predictably ended up in hospital but that was my decision, within the limits of however much insight I had at the time

[KissesBreakingWave]

Reported: this thread should be in Religion/Spirituality, being as it is stealth preaching for the Church of Scientology.

[FreudiansSlipper]

what because peope are questioning psychiatry

Many, many people who work in MH are questioning the way forward in psychiatry because so much in unknown

[Mitchy1nge]

I assumed that was a joke about scientology?

mostly these thread has been people chatting about their perceptions and experiences of psychiatry with some posters who could show a little more humility and some just chatting shit

[SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius]

You make an interesting point about how we will view today's psychiatric treatments in the future, serenity - and I think you are right. The same can be said of most, if not all medicine and surgery, I suspect.

It's sad but true that doctors and therapists have to develop their treatments by using them on real people, with real illnesses - at the moment, that's the only way to learn whether a treatment or surgical intervention will work - that is something that may well change in the future, and that will be a good thing.

People went through some barbaric treatments for depression and other mental illnesses, and because people learned from that, the treatments now are better - not perfect, as some people's very distressing experiences prove - but better, I believe.

[HarveySchlumpfenburger]

Difficult to tell what's a joke and isn't on here these days. I have a feeling that might not have been.

I'm not sure lumber punctures will ever be a diagnostic for depression. I doubt it would be very ethical since its a high risk procedure. It was part of a study looking into something specific.

I have a feeling there's some interesting stuff going on in genetics/epigenetics too.

[Serenitysutton]

Yes I understood that to be the main thrust of the thread- if you think about things which have been done to people in the past-

Lifetime institutionalisation and isolation
Electric shock therapy
Frontal labotomy
Imprisoning eg epileptics with criminals (for life)
Plus a whole host of things I don't know about- these things helped us get where we are today with regards to the treatment of mental illness.
But healthy and unhealthy people lost their lives to contribute towards getting that progress- my understanding is this thread is suggesting (almost certainly correctly ) that healthy and unhealthy people are dying today for the same reasons.

[CFSKate]

There's loads of examples on this thread of how psychiatry and drugs have helped people who had various problems, so I don't need to add to them with stories of people I have known. Psychiatry and the drugs obviously help a lot of people.

The kind of psychiatry that worries me is this. In 1988 the water was poisoned with aluminium in a town in Cornwall, and people got ill.

In 1995 a couple of psychiatrists wrote that "the most likely explanation of the Camelford findings is that the perception of normal and benign somatic symptoms (physical or mental) by both subjects and health professionals was heightened and subsequently attributed to an external, physical cause, such as poisoning."

So if I read right, they are saying that the villagers anxiety about the aluminium in the water led to heightened normal symptoms, which were then blamed on poisoning. Anxiety was the cause of the symptoms, not the aluminium.

Except now the villagers are dying and aluminium is being found in their brains, possibly explaining the dementia they suffered from.

Today's Daily Mail suggests a coverup to protect the privatisation of the water company.

[Mitchy1nge]

I think we got lots of things right in the past too

but yes, see also what they have done with the somatoform disorders in the dsm 5

[Mitchy1nge]

serenity ECT is still in use and can be very effective (I am pretty sure I would have it if it was indicated)

and they still leucotomise patients on the NHS (lobotomy) in Dundee but obviously not often

[HarveySchlumpfenburger]

I'm not sure about ECT. It probably would help but I'm quite worried about side effects. Makes me a bit nervous. I feel the same about the pacemaker thing they can put into your brain and the recent ketamine trial. All interesting things and maybe something to consider for the future.

It's interesting to see where different people would draw the line in terms of treatment.