... to think that psychiatry is a bit of a con ...?

[Rommell]

... hidebound as it is by cultural and societal norms. Yet it posits that the criteria it creates are truths as to who is 'well' and who is not. How can a person's mind, their psyche, their being be 'ill' anyway? Plus if it really were possible for a drug to produce 'correct' thinking, then the person who created it would be ruler of the world.

[Viviennemary]

A psychiatric nurse I knew told me that CBT works wonders on a lot of patients. So I suppose there must be something in it. But I don't really understand when drugs would be used and when counselling type therapy would be used. But I don't think psychiatry is a con. Not that I really know anything about it of course.

[VisualiseAHorse]

LOL

[VisualiseAHorse]

Sorry, not a particularly useful reply, and I've yet to read through all the replies yet.

But the idea that 'mental illness is a myth' is simply the funniest thing I have heard in quite a while.

[antimatter]

happybubblebrain - this article may be worth reading too:

www.madinamerica.com/2014/02/unwarranted-criticism-psychiatry-gone-astray/

[VisualiseAHorse]

Have read a bit more now.

Yes - I imagine it is pretty scary to have six people pin you down and inject you against your will. But I would much prefer that to what I was planning to do while having psychotic episodes, which was to give my baby, my beautiful sunshine baby, away to a stranger. That's what I wanted to do.
Both psychiatry and anti-psychotics (and ADs too), helped me recover form my illness.

Psychiatry is not a 'con'.

How exactly are 'lives at stake'? If I hadn't had got the help I needed, my child's life was in danger. My own life too.

[HarveySchlumpfenburger]

Gotzsche has historically had an interesting habit of asking a question he thinks he knows the answer to and then miraculously finding that answer and then writing it up in a style that tries to persuade the reader rather than analyse the evidence.

That Psychiatry Gone astray article is a poor piece of journalism that owes more to junk science than evidence based medicine. Full of logic it is not. It's a bit weak on saying what evidence supports his myths and there are some interesting leaps I suspect may be down to his misinterpreting the data or conclusions of studies in order to make them fit his own ideas. Science isn't supposed to do that. He might make 1 or 2 interesting points but they are well hidden by the general shambles of the rest of the article.

Dawson's critique wasn't much better to be fair.

[andsmile]

plentyofpube I couched my response in those terms because the OP is making very strong statements about a whole branch of medicine - which tends to be science based - evidenced that it.

I am pleased to see so many people on the thread saying how psychiatry has helped them or is helping them.

There is often a number of treatment options or combinations of treatments. It depends what the problem is and the individual.

[yegodsandlittlefishes]

I know a lot of people for whom psychiatric treament has not only saved their lives, but given their lives back.

So Op, what treatment do you suggest people with hallucinations, personality disorders, constant suicidal feelings, dementia (does this come under the same umbrella?) anorexia or other very real, identifiable and/or diagnosible mental illnesses should get? What support do you think their relatives/carers should get, if any?


I will concede that the realm of mental health has received far less interest or funding than it deserves and is woefully underfunded and this has hampered advances in research and development in most fields. Psychiatry is not as advanced as ut should be. I will go that far. But that is because for every person who want to find ways to help people with mental illnesses and at least find out more, there are 10 people like you who form opinions which stand against the advancement of the treatment of mental illnesses.

[Suzannewithaplan]

there's a long tradition of criticising psychiatry, RD Laing, Thomas Szasz and all that.

cracked and crazy like us are worth a read on the subject imo.
Also edward shorter

[NinjaLeprechaun]

What percentage of cancer can be cured? Are the terrible side-effects worth the low success rate? Why is there no thread railing against the con that is chemotherapy?

[AndyWarholsBanana]

I have worked as a mental health nurse for 20 years and have also been a psychiatric patient.
I will concede that there is a greater degree of subjectivity when making a diagnosis in psychiatry than in other branches of medicine. And I totally admit that we don't always get it right. I also believe that antidepressants are over prescribed. However, it doesn't follow that all of psychiatry is a con. Of course it's OK to start a thread challenging psychiatry but it's the way the OP has done it that is offensive to so many people. Making sweeping statements about "jailers posing as nurses" is deeply offensive to mental health nurses as well as being utter shit.
To address the issue of compulsion: You have to be VERY ill to be sectioned in this country. To be detained, it takes 3 people - 2 doctors who have been approved under the Mental Health act and a social worker and it's the social worker who as the final say ie if the doctors want to section someone and the social worker says no, it doesn't happen. people have the right to appeal and the patient's nearest relative has a lot of power - if the relative objects to a Section 3, it can't go ahead without going to court. Those of us who work in mental health are very aware that psychiatry has a terrible track record in terms of human rights which is why we are trying to put it right.
The idea that serious mental illness is a myth is offensive and dangerous. I have worked with a patient who is paralysed from the neck down after jumping from a window during a manic episode as she believed she could fly. I have nursed a man who, also during a manic episode, withdrew his entire live savings and went round tube stations handing it all away to people. I have nursed a lady who walked into a betting shop naked asking who wanted to have sex with her. Do you think she should have been sectioned for her own protection or just left to get on with it?
I was shown nothing but kindness when I spent 8 weeks in hospital with psychotic depression during which I fully believed that I was personally responsible for the Iraq war and that every death was down to me.Mental illness is hideous and very real.

[PlentyOfPubeGardens]

andsmile - I am pleased to see so many people on the thread saying how psychiatry has helped them or is helping them

Me too. I know people whose lives have been saved by psychiatry and whose lives have been once again made worth living. I know people who will be eternally grateful to psychiatry and to the skilled professionals who have treated them and made them well.

However, that's not everybody's experience, sadly. I know other people who have been treated unnecessarily or who have been damaged by psychiatry, sometimes irreparably. Psychiatry does not have a spotless history, however much we might wish that wasn't so.

I am extremely uncomfortable with the overall tone of this thread - that those with negative experiences have to stfu just in case someone, somewhere else, stops complying with their treatment. I don't think any branch of medicine should be beyond criticism, especially the only branch that can treat people without their consent and remove their freedom. I also think it's deeply unfair to suggest that patients cannot question their treatment unless they can produce peer reviewed evidence or come up with viable alternatives for how to treat mental distress.

The OP may have been poorly worded, that doesn't mean there are no questions that can be asked.

[ClairesTravellingCircus]

Plenty

I don't believe there's an overtone that people with negative experiences should stf on this thread.
Actually quite a lot of professionals have openly amitted that it there often mistakes made.
From here to saying it's all a con, as the OP did, there's a huge difference.
Interestingly, the OP has not answered when asked what her solution is in respect to cases of psychotic behaviour that lead the patient to be dangerous to themselves or others.

She's right when she says thet it different from ither branches of medicine as it's a lot more subjective, it's fine to point out its shortcomings, with a view to improving it, but to strike it off as a con?

No wonder people are being a bit defensive about it!

[fascicle]

Very interesting debate. Nobody would dispute the unique challenges/difficulties in diagnosing, measuring and successfully treating mental health issues. But to describe psychiatry as a con because of this is a non sequitur; to question whether mental health issues even constitute 'illness' is absurd. If you're going to discredit an entire branch of medicine and question mental 'illness' - what's the alternative model (or does the OP think none is required)?

[Latara]

Rommell how can a pill work against Psychosis

There are lots of textbooks out there which explain the physiology if you can be bothered to read it. Or just google Aripiprazole which is the Anti-Psychotic I take.

Aripiprazole was sedating initially until I got used to taking it. Now it is fine.

[PlentyOfPubeGardens]

I think in cases of severe mental illness it is clear to see something medical is going on that needs treatment. Around the edges of this, there are a huge number of people who have what a pp described as 'shit life syndrome' for all sorts of reasons. Sometimes medication can help. Far too often, a prescription is given simply because it's easier than dealing with the person's actual shit life and their totally normal feelings in response to that. We do overmedicalise and it's worth questioning, especially as these drugs have very serious side effects.

The discussion has definitely improved over the last few pages. It's good to see a couple of posters acknowledge the subjectivity in psychiatry.

[AndyWarholsBanana]

Also wanted to say that, for many people, what works best is medication combined with psychological therapy, it's not either/or. Also, even the most medically minded psychiatrist would agree that mental illness isn't only about chemicals and that psychological and social factors and difficult childhood experiences all play their part.
I work in a very deprived area and probably half my time is spent on social issues like housing and benefits as sorting out these things is often the best thing I can do for someone's mental health.

[CaptainSinker]

Fair enough to question and criticise psychiatry.

You seem to be suggestin mental illness is somehow not real because psychiatrists don't work by physical examination. But mental illnesses are associated with structural differences in the brain. It is just that psychiatric treatment is more easily and accurately managed through patient report and clinical observation.

This is not unique to psychiatry. I have Epilepsy. My MRI brain scans are normal. My neurologist could find differences in my brain by doing other, more complex and expensive scans and tests. These however would not influence treatment. So all my treatment is based on is my self reporting. I could be imagining epilepsy symptoms. But medical research allows neurologists to. Understand the likely course of illness and response to various treatments. It is also a bit hit and miss duet I variations between people.

So does this mean epilepsy is not real, and neurology is a con? No. Your arguments a re silly and offensive.

[BigBoobiedBertha]

I was going to post about the alleged lack of physical examination by psychiatrists but I see a real psychiatrist has come and put the OP straight, not that they will listen.

My father has Alzheimer's which, at the beginning at least, presents itself as a mental illness. His diagnosis was in part made by a psychiatrist using brain scans. You can see the disease that is creating the mental illness. I should imagine that dementia is not the only MH disease that can be seen in this way.

ASD can be seen on brain scans too - there is evidence that various areas of the brain function differently in people with ASDs. I would imagine that it will be part of the diagnosis process for some in a few years time. Psychiatry is not solely reliant on observation but uses techniques that other specialities use.

Psychiatry is the poor relation of the medical profession, it seems to me, because mental illness is so difficult to pin down and so many people, like the OP just don't understand it. They think it is quackery but really it deals with intangible symptoms for something that is wrong inside the massively complex structures of the brain. If you have broken your leg, even an unqualified person can probably see that but it is a lot harder to know if there is a mental illness. A broken leg is a broken leg but one person's mental health issue could be another person's normal behaviour. For example crying and grief are perfectly normal in somebody who is suffering a recent bereavement, but not normal in somebody who is upset that they missed the bus or something relatively trivial. That is what psychiatrists have to deal with - picking apart the normal and the abnormal.

I'm no expert, OP, but I have no doubt YABU.

[andsmile]

Historically it has a bad rep. I'm just studying the origins of counselling now.

Its not that long ago young unmarried mothers would be institutionalised for their situation. People with learning difficulties locked up. There will be people still alive today who may have experienced this or seen it in their lifetime.

Whilst I agree there is a degree of subjectivity and overlap between labels I think when someone who has bee able to function, even if they are mentally ill, deteriorate and become a danger to themselves or others then some form of intervention is necessary. it is knowing when and how to intervene.

[andsmile]

Most mental illness is able to be observed through the behaviour of the person - this is of course is subjective too but I think most people can see when someone has undergone a change and is not themselves.

[MiscellaneousAssortment]

I'm glad this thread has become a debate, ignoring some of the hyperbole and getting to the heart of the issue. Very interesting.

[AndyWarholsBanana]

See the OP hasn't come back for a while. Quelle surprise. I'm also glad this thread has taken a sensible turn. Maybe the OP has unintentially done everyone a favour.

[GiddyUpCowboy]

I understand from an article in New Scientist last year that Neurology have had to go back to the drawing board when it comes to brain scans reserach, as some of the old research is a pile or rubbish.

[Mitchy1nge]

hope you are ok OP

I think what you have to say, and more importantly the reasons why you want to say it is more important than how you phrase it