If you're poor it's basically your own fault, isn't it?

[ReputableBiscuit]

I'm so sick of this attitude, in society in general and on MN specifically. Some people just don't seem to have the imagination to realise that poverty is a complex thing and fucking hard to escape. 'Why don't you try budgeting?', 'how can you call yourself poor when you have a big TV?', 'give up smoking then you won't be poor'. 'Cook from scratch.' It's just not as simple as that. Unemployment, disability, mental health problems, social disadvantage, debt, benefits stoppages... none of these are magically undone by somebody writing a list of their outgoings or learning to cook a hearty potato soup.

[StabInTheDark]

The poster above who made a distinction between 'Jeremy Kyle sorts' and decent, hardworking folk- this is a big part of the problem. When we start to distinguish between the deserving and undeserving poor and bringing in the notion of an 'underclass', (which is a vile word that I despise) what we are essentially doing is totally alienating a whole group of people.

Instead of turning our noses up at people we need to try to understand why people are in the situations they are. If you grow up in a house where your parents are too drunk to function, don't work, don't care about education, steal, are violent etc, this doesn't only impact your mindset but your chances. How on earth can we expect someone whose only experience of life is an environment like that to know any different?

I just think we shouldn't be so quick to judge- I think a lot of people we sneer at on the Jeremy Kyle show will have been through a heck of a lot. I think a huge attitude in this country is that we're willing to disregard a whole group of people who have had no chance from the beginning in favour of a 'deserving poor'. And it turns my stomach!

[SelectAUserName]

"If you do work hard you do reap the rewards. You just need to be willing to put everything in it."

I'll tell that to my DH, shall I, who worked for twenty years in a filthy, heavy, dangerous manual shift-working job which most people on this board couldn't cope with for twenty minutes never mind twenty years; a job from which he was made redundant and, as we've recently discovered, has wrecked his physical health leaving him with an incurable condition; who retrained following redundancy and held down a professional career until made redundant again; who then took a call centre job because it was all he could get until his health deteriorated to the point he was medically retired and who is now at risk of having the few benefits he does qualify for withdrawn thanks to this government's welfare reforms? Did he just not "work hard enough" to "reap the rewards"? The reward he has reaped for having "put everything in" is to have been left mentally and physically disabled, treated like shit by this government - who have no objection to spending the taxes he still pays on his meagre pension - and demonised as a benefit claimant.

Some fucking reward.

[StabInTheDark]

Also, J.K Rowling said this, and I think it hits the nail on the head in relation to the 'underclass'.

'The poor are discussed as this homogeneous mash, like porridge. The idea that they might be individuals, and be where they are for very different, diverse reasons, again seems to escape some people.'

[Sparklysilversequins]

select

[ReputableBiscuit]

'If you do work hard you do reap the rewards. You just need to be willing to put everything in it.'

My friend works 8 hours a day on her feet, waitressing in a hot cafe. Then she stays behind to clean the cafe for another two hours. Leaves home at 8, cycles 5 miles to work, comes home at 8. She's still poor, still reliant on deficient, precarious housing, still unable to build up savings. What else should she put in beside 12 hours of physical hard work a day?

[Badvoc]

Ah.
The govt has really done a good job of making it between the deserving and undeserving poor haven't they?
Divide and conquer and all that.
I really think that - for the first time in my life - I will not vote.

[Kendodd]

Some people are poor because they made, and make, bad choices though. I know a great deal aren't, but some are, I know plenty. Poor people are not saintly victims of society, they are just the same as the rest of us, some are good some are bad. I think that poor people who make it out are exceptional (and lucky) though, they and their children do have fewer chances in life and I think this should be recognised more, maybe by excepting lower grades at uni for disadvantaged people.

[StabInTheDark]

ALSO... (deep breaths)
I HUGELY resent the idea that if someone works hard enough they can somehow break a whole generational cycle of poverty. Come and live where I live and look at the kids, the schools, the lack of jobs and then say that they should 'work harder.' I've seen kids working hard for A Levels to then realise they can't even scrape together the train fare for the interview. I am sick of seeing 'go to university and better yourself,' when it's just impossible financially, never mind all of the other obstacles, for some people.

[Whathaveiforgottentoday]

I think the media plays an enormous role in our perception of the 'poor' and sadly a small but very visible minority conform to that perception so everytime we hear somebody complaining that they've got no money while puffing on a cigarette etc its reinforces that image.
The majority of the 'poor' are just not seen - probably as they're trying to get on with their lifes. OP I agree with you and more understanding is needed.

[MrsAtticus]

It's a very complex issue, we are quite poor and try not to compain too much, as we have both made choices throughout our lives which have led to this, we could have made other choices which would have led us to being more financially stable.
In terms of flat screen TVs etc, that's another complex one, poverty is viewed in comparison to those around you, and these days there is a certain expectation that a standard household will have a flat screen TV, be able to afford a holiday etc. I can understand why people would question the complaining of poor people who seem to have expensive material items, on the other hand, if you've never been poor, you wouldn't understand the complex emotions and decisions to be made about how to spend what little you have, especially if there are children involved who need to feel 'normal'.
For the record, we don't have a flat screen TV!

[FunLovinBunster]

Reading the personal stories on this thread just goes to show that one can't generalise. I hope that your life situations improve, and soon.

[akachan]

YANBU

There is a lot of ignorance about poverty. Also a TV is not a big expense, it just isn't. The idea that people should pawn their TV for a pittance before they can claim to be poor is stupid. It's a very cheap way to get some entertainment.

I'm relatively well off and I can tell my story in a way that makes it sound like that's all down to me. I went to night school after my low paid secretarial job and requalified and became a lawyer. My parents paid the fees for college though.

[defineme]

CoffeeTea123

I don't think that's the case. I think you possibly have a narrow definition of 'working hard'-I assume you mean paid employment. There are many carers stuck in poverty working very hard and they can't 'help themselves' because that would mean abandoning the child/parent/partner they're caring for.

My ds 'puts everything into it' in his life- I suspect I'll be supporting him for his entire life because his autism is a barrier that putting everything into it can't overcome.

I can't imagine the circumstances when I'd become poor-I have professional qualification in a profession there is always work in, I have a good pension, I'll have paid off my mortgage quite soon, I have well off relatives who would help me out if I ever needed it. I have savings , insurance and a dh who earns a fair amount too. I don't think I'm particularly hard working or particularly clever. I think I'm lucky.

I work with children from poverty stricken backgrounds and volunteer with families struggling with poverty. I can't think when I've ever thought that it was their own fault they were poor. How would that be the case? I can't think how I would surmount the myriad obstacles they face.

I think there are good/ bad people/feckless wasters in every strata of society and have seen similar behaviour in rich circles to that on Jeremy Kyle-just in more expensive clothes.

I have my own struggles, but the cushion of money is significant.

[MojitoMadness]

I suppose people looking at us on the outside would lump us as "benefit scum". DH is out of work after being made redundant thanks to the government's cuts to the civil service, and I claim Carter's allowance and SPA for dd1. We have a big fat screen TV bought for us by my dad, freebies box bought by my dad, laptop bought by my dad, kindle fire bought by my dad, I have a BlackBerry that's about 2 years old (was originally on contract now PAYG). We don't smoke, share 1 bottle of wine at the weekend (£3.50 in asda), take the kid's swimming once a week (£3.60 for DH, kids go free), kid's have Clark's school shoes and decent clothes (some from M&S, some from Primark). I save up and sell stuff on eBay so I can get them nice clothes, and buy birthday presents, trips to the cinema etc. Our biggest expense is car insurance, we have a 15 year old Fiat Sequento to get the kid's to school. Car insurance and petrol work out cheaper than getting the bus.

I think people who've never experienced poverty can be very narrow minded if they really think it's peoples own faults for being poor. I come from a working class background, my dad has been in the same job for 30 years, my mum worked as a cleaner around us being in school. I worked from leaving school at 16, mostly in unskilled jobs. We got custody (as it was back then) of DSD when she was 9. I gave up work as she needed someone around for her after the chaos of living with her mum. I then had my dds and childcare was too costly for me to go back to work.

DH grew up in care, was given his own council flat at 17 and left to get on with it. He was working full-time for £1 an hour (this was 1991). He had no idea about budgets, how to make ends meet etc. He went from shitty job to shitty job, got his girlfriend pregnant when he was 18 and then had another mouth to feed. I handle all the finances now because he finds it so stressful to deal with. When I met him he was choosing between buying himself food for his tea or busfare to get to work. I could never have comprehended that level of poverty when I met him, we'd always had enough to eat and my parents sheltered us from how bad it got. DH never had that, he had no one to learn budgeting from, no one to look out for him. So people in their ivory towers claiming poverty is people's own making have got a bloody clue about the real world! Walk a mile in someone else's shoes before judging them otherwise you're just showing how narrow minded and closed off to reality you really are!

[MojitoMadness]

Carers allowance and DLA bloody autocorrect.

[MojitoMadness]

Determination to not live in poverty can be a good thing and push people to claw themselves out of it. But sometimes that's still not enough.

My DSD is now in her early twenties, she has said she is never having kids. Because of the way her mother was/is she's determined she will never be like her. She has a good job for a major bank (in the call centre), she drives a brand new 13 plate car, goes out every weekend and on at least 4 holidays abroad a year. A very far cry from the life she lived with her mother (or us for that matter). But she can only afford it because she lives with her grandparents, she will never own her own house.

[Ubik1]

I think outside London and the southeast the job situation is really tough.

I read somewhere that 80% of the cranes in Britain are currently working in London. As building/development is a good barometer of economy, it's safe to say London is doing rather well.

Looking at jobs section for my city, virtually all jobs are for 'bank staff' ie:zero hours or temporary.

[Gimmesomemore]

My dh hates the term that success is down to luck, and says the harder he works the luckier he gets.

[TheXxed]

Aaahhhhhh my bad I missed that bit sorry worra

[HappyMummyOfOne]

Its a mixed bag, some are limited in job choices because of a health problem but plenty make decisions that maybe others wouldnt of made.

If you choose not to work, have children you cannot afford without help, not gain qualifications etc then quality of life will be worse than others. However, as an adult you know what those choices mean and can then hardly moan about the outcomes. Circumstances can change, no relationship is guaranteed so its never wise to assume another adult is going to be there with their salary so a plan b, be it keeping your job after children or ensuring you have a decent pot before having them is common sense.

Of course, stopping smoking, drinking, cooking etc can all save money. Its daft to suggest otherwise. Budgeting is not taught to many.

A lot of it is to do with upbringing, if you live in a household where no adults work it would be seen as the norm to the child that you dont need to work to have money and a home.

[SolidGoldBrass]

Do you completely miss the fact that a lot of people are poor because certain rich people have made this happen? Companies which prioritize sharefholder profits do so by reducing wage costs as much as they can and cutting staff so people are quite often doing more than one person's work for half a salary.A lot of people who are poor are working. They get the minimum wage. They can work a 40 hour week and take home less than £280. Probably £150 of that goes on housing costs, if not more. If they have DC they get tax credits which exist primarily to save large corporations money by keeping wages low.
Benefits paid to people who are not in paid work make up less than half of the benefits bill.

[WooWooOwl]

As has been said, there are many reasons for being poor so it makes no sense at all to either assume that poor people are never responsible for their circumstances or that they are always responsible for their circumstances.

In the same way that assuming wealth, or just financial comfort is always down to luck, it is just as wrong to assume that it is always down to hard work.

Anyone who can't see that there is always more than one side to either poverty or luxury is likely to be incredibly small minded.

Contrary to some posters beliefs, I don't get my opinion that some people are responsible for their own poverty from the daily mail or any other form of media. I get it from what I have seen in my own family, where those who are poor are so because of choices they have made and attitudes they have displayed. And where those who are comfortable are so because of hard work, apart from one who just married well.

That doesn't mean I can't see that some who are either wealthy or poor are in that situation because of who they were born to and where they were born, but I don't believe that the notion of deserving and undeserving poor is as abhorrent and as impossible as some posters seem to think.

[Piscivorous]

You just can't generalise though. There are a lot of people trapped in poverty through no fault of their own but there are others who make self-indulgent bad decisions on a regular basis and exacerbate the situation.

I work in a very deprived area and see, on a regular basis, people who smoke, drink and eat badly while complaining of lack of money. I am sure that someone like this is spending more on their choice of indulgence per week than I spend on myself despite me having an income. I would never dream of saying I cannot feed my children because I have bought myself perfume/handbag/shoes or other luxury but they genuinely do not see that they are doing that for cigarettes or alcohol. There is an attitude of entitlement, instant gratification and powerlessness and, whilst I understand it, I find it hard to excuse it.