If you're poor it's basically your own fault, isn't it?

[ReputableBiscuit]

I'm so sick of this attitude, in society in general and on MN specifically. Some people just don't seem to have the imagination to realise that poverty is a complex thing and fucking hard to escape. 'Why don't you try budgeting?', 'how can you call yourself poor when you have a big TV?', 'give up smoking then you won't be poor'. 'Cook from scratch.' It's just not as simple as that. Unemployment, disability, mental health problems, social disadvantage, debt, benefits stoppages... none of these are magically undone by somebody writing a list of their outgoings or learning to cook a hearty potato soup.

[Sparklysilversequins]

thepurplepenguin I don't think you can compare the times in which your grandfather managed to propel himself upwards, to today. Great for him but it's not relevant to today's society and opportunities.

[Laquitar]

You call it 'opportunity' Kite. I would say it is just not as shit as living in countries with no human rights, wars etc. It is better than that yes.
As for making a good life i think this era gone. My dh's uncle did what you describe and then he opened a restaurant and bought houses in a cheap then area and he is now millionaire. Yes go now and open a Restaurang in North London with no capital, no clue, and see if you will be millionaire! Sturbucks and Pizza Express will eat you for breakfast!
Or do some ovdrtime and with the extra pennies try to buy house in Southgate!
Or go and read 'the death of working class'.

[lottieandmia]

Handcream. Smoking is not a luxury, it is an addiction and is very very hard to give up, especially if you have a stressful life. And I say that as someone who has never smoked, perhaps because I have, you know, empathy??

Why shouldn't poor people want to be able to have a few nice things in life? Like being able to watch television FFS and be able to socialise. I really do not see how those things are luxuries.

[SolidGoldBrass]

Another factor the smug and stupid are missing out on is how much harder it is now to 'work your way up.' If you try to start your own business there is far more legislation and red tape than there used to be, which makes it a lot harder for people who might have no problem with hard work and be intelligent but poorly educated, so they can't cope with the form-filling. Obtaining qualifications for quite low-level work costs money which you don't have, if you're poor.
And the idea of starting out somewhere scrubbing the floors and making the tea and then progressing to management is entirely gone. The people who clean, and cater, and do all the 'unskilled' but necessary jobs in big organisations are now employed by agencies, who compete with one another to charge the organisation the lowest price by paying their workers as little as possible and treating the workers as disposable vermin.

Yet nice big chunks of taxpayers' money are going to people who are already privileged and comfortable. Like this self-indulgent twat.

[uselessidiot]

Well said SGB.

[thepurplepenguin]

Father not grandfather

I still think having an alcoholic/abusive/gambling parent and being brought up with a limited education are some of the main 'complex reasons' considered to be likely to perpetuate the cycle of poverty. My point was that it doesn't have to.
I understand that there was greater social mobility back then, but it was still pretty grim, and not everyone managed to 'escape' poverty. Indeed, my uncle's side of the family are still in the same situation now and it is continuing down the generations.

[Cobain]

For every immigrant that does well there is probably 100's still living in squalor in there original country, just like for every poor person that changes their fortunes there are many left behind. Life's choices and opportunities are not equal and not everyone has the chance to change.

[thepurplepenguin]

That Lily Cole article! Wtaf?

[PortofinoRevisited]

I would definitely 2nd (or 3rd or 4th) the recommendatiion of reading Owen Jones "Chavs" book. It really does explain what is the reality and what is Media driven. And how successive Govts - Labour and Tory have sucked out working class pride.

[Odaat]

Life's choices and opportunities are not equal and not everyone has the chance to change.
Cobain - this exactly!

[Ubik1]

I agree SGB

I had a friend who came back to UK after a sabbatical: "I'll just get a job in a call centre," he said. Oh dear. He was competing against graduates with 5+ years experience on the phones, knowledge of database systems, call control, telephony.

[neverthebride]

There are many issues and many problems facing those in the 'poverty trap'. I know 35 year olds who have never worked a day in their lives and neither have any of their friends.

Why? Because they came from crappy areas with crap schools and parents who did their best but that wasn't great because of THEIR crap parents and crap education and so it goes back through the generations.

So these 35 year olds have been using drugs and/or alcohol since early adolescence and frequently go in and out of prison.

It's hard to get a job these days. It's even harder if you have no qualifications and in many cases struggle with literacy. It's even harder if you've got a criminal record. Harder still if you have a history of drug or alcohol misuse. Harder still if you're 35 and have NEVER had a job. You've got no experience of even having to get up in the morning never mind get yourself somewhere and do a day's work.

I work with people like this every day and yes some (though by no means all) are the people who spend their benefits on fags and booze. Sometimes I am so frustrated and angry with them particularly when someone in their 30s tells me 'I'm too old to get a job now' (!) but these people are part of our society and a result of successive government policies on employment, social services, education etc and we can't detach ourselves from our own society and say 'it's all their fault, they should try harder'. or whatever.

Imagine how terrifying and insurmountable it must seem when you've been an adult for 20 yrs but have no clue of how you would even begin to start to support yourself because you never have and neither has anyone you know.

I'm not saying it's right that able-bodied adults have never worked, It's not. It shouldn't happen but it has and that's due to numerous factors both individual and a result of social attitudes and government policies. Saying they should just get off their arse and make an effort is so simplistic and ultimately pointless.

[TheCrackFox]

Good post SGB.

Nursery staff are now expected to have a whole sheath of NVQs and managers are expected to have a relevant degree - all for little over minimum wage.

[BMW6]

TBH I really don't believe that there is a solution. When Labour got in under Blair I really believed they would sort it out and eradicate poverty in the UK.

They couldn't do it after 13 YEARS in power. If they couldn't with that mandate, I don;t think that it is achievable at all.

[Ledare]

SGB

[MorrisZapp]

It seems you can't suggest that poor people should be expected to do anything at all to improve their lot. I totally get that most life chances will depend upon what you were born into, but that's very problematic isn't it, because how would the many poorer MN users feel if I assumed they weren't giving their kids respect for education, interest in culture, aspirations etc? They'd be outraged at my prejudice, wouldn't they.

It's all very well saying but poor people were born into an unbreakable cycle, but isn't that insulting to the thousands of parents raising their children with love, security, encouragement, love of literature etc while on a very low income?

My own parents didn't have a pot to piss in but I had a wonderful childhood, and I am passing that on now as I raise my son. Poor doesn't have to mean devoid of hope or living in ignorance.

[giveadogabonio]

I was thinking about this the other day when I heard some middle class parents bleating in the playground about the pupil premium and how bloody unfair it is that they go out and work hard but their children aren't eligible for the pupil premium etc etc.

I live in quite a nice, middle class area and I work 5 mins down the road in an area that is amongst the 10% worst deprived in the UK. The middle class mothers in the playground have NO idea how different the lives of the children where I work are compared to their own children's.

It's not about disposable income - plenty of kids in the deprived area have nice phones/gel nails/ipads etc etc but what the vast majority do NOT have is:

• a home life where parents are either willing or able to help them to succeed at school;
  
• a positive example to follow with regards to employment, turning up on time (or at all), decent work ethic etc etc;
  
• financial support in respect of college/university fees;
  
• any chance of inheriting property;
  
• access to decent education (all of the schools in their area are failing.
  

Along with a host of other issues.

Now I have concerns about the pupil premium in that the government are just throwing money at the 'problem' with no real direction or measurement in place as to how this money makes a difference.

But this is not the gripe that the playground Mums have - they want money for their DC because someone else has it. They don't see how very disadvantaged some of these children are in so many areas because they simply don't choose to see it.

[giveadogabonio]

"Poor doesn't have to mean devoid of hope or living in ignorance"

No, I 100% agree with you on that MorrisZapp. But there is nothing wrong with acknowledging that some people have the odds stacked against them in a way that others just don't.

[SolidGoldBrass]

Nor is it terribly surprising that the poor buy the most lottery tickets - and are the people most likely to be prepared to humiliate themselves on television.

It's worth taking a moment to think about the poor little sods that volunteer in their thousands for manipulative, exploitative crap like the X Factor and Big Brother - and how many of the 'winners' are badly educated, have grown up in poverty and chaos and have histories of petty crime and/or drug abuse. They think that going on these programmes is the only chance they will ever have of making some money and being taken seriously. So they end up getting the equivalent of about six months' worth of the salary of the people who make the programmes along with a comprehensive trashing of their lives, their looks, their personalities, their habits - and generally, a year or so later, they're back on the dole with nothing to show for it.

[SolidGoldBrass]

Of course, there is a solution to poverty that seems to work pretty well. But for some reason it's widely percieved as totally unacceptable.

Just give poor people more money.

[MorrisZapp]

I don't see how giving somebody money would in any way mitigate an upbringing devoid of parental engagement. Is it money that poor people need, or freedom from the shit parenting visited on them? Many have mentioned addiction on this thread, with regards to smoking and with drug use too. Wouldn't those worst hit by the issues surrounding addiction just use the money for their addiction?

Or are we talking about people who want to succeed and just need a leg up?

[bochead]

You need an NVQ now for many cleaning jobs, and for that you need the money to do the course - just pointing this out to those who may not know.

Apprenticeships like my Grandfather did are gone. University without going into oodles of debt like my mother did is no longer an option unless your family has money.

School education is becoming more socially divisive with each year that passes.

key and card meters for utilities cost a LOT more than those able to pay via direct debit. It's harder to buy food in bulk too.

A working class family now is far less likely to have the security of a life time council tenancy.

A girl I taught was moved foster home 28 times in one school year - how on earth was she expected to do well at her studies? I learnt from the HT that, children are put in that kind of impossible situation more often than most of us can imagine.

[expatinscotland]

Oh, I howl with laughter at, 'They have all this support. A brand new centre being built there.'

We lived in one of 'those' areas. Two of our good friends still do. He is a 999 dispatcher and she works FT in a pet shop. They have a shared ownership terraced house. They still experience, regularly, postcode discrimination when it comes to many resources and I doubt many of those slinging those arrows would deign to live in that area.

[SolidGoldBrass]

Giving poor people more money makes loads of sense in economic and social terms. Just think about it.
Start with the non-earning and/or the absolute minimum earners. Give them some more money. They will spend it locally - in the cafes and the pubs and the local shops. The people who run the local shops and cafes have a bit more money and they spend it, on flowers and shoes and clothes and restaurants. And the florists and the chefs and the cobblers and the shoemakers spend their increased money, and it all goes around.

Or look at it from the other end, the workfare end, and what an economic, logical failure that is. Force the poor to work in the poundshop for no wages. What money they recieve gets spent on absolute essentials like rent, food and heating. No spare money to buy the goods in the poundshop. The wealthy don't buy the goods in the poundshop. No one, ultimately, buys the goods in the poundshop, so the poundshop goes bust.