To think it is time to secularise all state-funded education?

[fideline]

Just that really.

Ah, Errol is a step ahead of me.

Abra1d, given that most of us are arguing against discrimination on the basis of religious beliefs (or lack of) , what makes you think that more discrimination and segregation is the answer?

Getting rid of the requirements for daily worship is part of the solution, but there is no need for state funded faith schools at all . There's nothing special about religion.

Coming to the thread really late, but I totally agree with the OP. It is ridiculous that churches play any sort of a role in education.

this case of a protestant boy being punished for not attending holy communion says it all really.

I also find some of the faith based academies really sinister - we know of one where the head recently resigned, but only after he tried to foist his extreme religious views on staff, parents and children.

There are so many different issues with faith schools and religion in schools. We live in a rural area. Many of the village primaries are CofE. I have visited some of them and they were very clearly Christian with wall displays about Jesus loving them etc. I want my DD to have a broad religious education of the "some people believe" variety. But I don't want any of it taught as fact (sadly inescapable at some level). I know that they don't discriminate on intake, but I wouldn't want my DD to go to such a religious school and had to narrow down which villages we could live in to those with non-denominational schools.

Even non-denominational schools have to have acts of worship. I don't think that it would be fair on my DD to withdraw her from these as it could be isolating.

I come from a more diverse area and remember as a teenager meeting a friend if a friend who commented to me that I was the first non-Jewish person she had a conversation with in a number of years. I think that this was partly/primarily due to her going to a Jewish school. I don't think that is a good thing.

The British Humanist Association has recently discovered that some (perhaps more extreme) faith schools are not fulfilling their obligations to teach the full national curriculum. I don't see why tax payers should find schools that don't teach the minimum required if them by the state.

IMO it is a bit like the grammar school debate. Argue for a return to grammar schools if you are happy for your child to not quite make the grade and to have to go to the local secondary modern.

Argue for faith based schools if you are happy to find yourself in an area where your preferred school is faith based and you dont share that faith.

If you lost your memory so you were unaware of whether you were a Christian or otherwise when your dcs went to school, which system would you choose - secular open to all or the current system that restricts you admission based on your religion - remember you have no idea which religion you belong to and how well you have attended.

We'd all go secular without religious requirement because it is just and fair....not Christian terms now?

Another thread about this thread (which is 'depressing' apparently.

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I'm an atheist, but I dislike the tone of many posts that I read on threads like this. They don't sit easy with me and some, ironically given some of their objections to religion, are just plain bigoted.

Be careful what you wish for, imo.

I agree. Yanbu.

How so Johnny?

YADNBU. I can't believe that in this day and age a child can be refused admission to a state funded school on the basis of parents religion. It really boils my piss.

Where's the bigotry Johnny?

Johnny doesn't seem to want to answer.

Another thing that could happen with secular schools, is that you could could completely re-write all the holiday rules. At present, most school holidays are broadly connected with christian festivals... So, secular schools could open all through December, including December 25, and all through Easter too. You could select when the holidays would be. I reckon May and June would be a great time to have school holidays...

Why on earth would you do that, Nonno?

Good question Mart

Yanbu. I totally agree. It's so annoying that the only good school we're in catchment for is catholic. And that ppl have converted to get their children in. I can understand why they have too. But just couldn't do it personally. It's discrimination on the grounds of religion.

Good grief, give me a bloody chance!

Some of the secularism you get on these threads is as trenchant as some of the worst excesses of religion, that's all. They're intolerant and convinced that they're right without considering alternatives, such as shaking up admissions law.

I don't want to live somewhere that bans veils in state schools, say. Because that's the kind of thing you're heading towards when insisting on keeping religion out of education.

Agree. I've been banging on about this for years to anyone who will listen. Funny thing is, the vast majority of people seem to agree with me, so why we still tolerate state funded faith schools is a mystery to me.

Sorry that's not terribly coherent but I'm posting whilst doing a dozen other things.

You still haven't actually answered though.

What bigotry?

"I don't want to live somewhere that bans veils in state schools, say. Because that's the kind of thing you're heading towards when insisting on keeping religion out of education."

No you're not. The wearing of a veil is (one hopes) a personal choice. Nobody is suggesting that people should not be allowed to practise their own religion in any way they want that doesn't break the law or frighten the horses.

Nonno - that assumes that the festivals you regard as Christian are regarded by everyone as Christian- so the festivals culturally accepted in the UK as Christmas and Easter are regarded by some as more ancient festivals based around midwinter and spring/fertility. For many , the cultural and celebratory aspects of those festivals now take precedence over the Christian stamp applied to them several hundred years ago.

Changing school term dates does require a degree of co-operation between different schools and local authorities, because it needs to work for families with children in different schools too. It also needs to tie in with nationally-recognised public holidays, and I think there is a culturally entrenched position around Christmas being a time to celebrate with family that has matched or overtaken the Christian element of it.

Again, Easter is linked to national public holidays, but there's a persuasive argument for keeping the public holidays as such but having fixed, non-church-calendar based spring and summer term dates. (I think the possible outcry over abandoning Good Friday and Easter Monday as public holidays and reallocating the BH dates might cause a public outcry among the more vocal elements of the media, and detract from the underlying issue of educational discrimination against the non-religious).

It's very hard for people who are being intolerant and aggressive to recognise their own behaviour and attitudes.

Who is the best judge of what it feels like to be in the receiving end of homophobia or racism? Not straight or white people, but those on the receiving end. If a child tells you that it is being bullied, would you assume that his or her account of the experience should be trusted or would you believe the bully? White people are quite capable of being unaware of their racist attitudes and simultaneously believing themselves to be non-racist, bullies can be unaware that what they are doing is hurtful.

So when people say that posters on this, and related threads are being aggressive or intolerant or prejudiced or bigoted, it is perfectly likely that these posters are unaware of how their posts are being received, and of the hurtfulness of their words. It's never pleasant to think that you are behaving in prejudiced and hurtful ways, but don't we owe it to others to at least listen to their experience and presume that they are being truthful about it?

For my part, I can see that the admissions rules of VA CofE schools are experienced as deeply unfair and discriminatory, and while I still think that worship in schools can have a really valuable part to play in children's educational, social and moral development, I have been convinced that selective admissions by faith schools are wrong.

Is it too much to hope that there might be some rapprochement from the other direction?