To think it is time to secularise all state-funded education?

[fideline]

Just that really.

Another who agrees religion should not decide what school you attend, there would be an outcry in the west of Scotland over this but the govt should implement it, tho cant see it happening in my lifetime.

A lot of West of Scotland posters. I hadn't realised things were that extreme outside of Glasgow.

To be fair back, isn't that only cofe attendance - then there's rc, baptist, Methodist, congregational, Pentecostal,...? And I know for a fact lots of us believe and live our lives around our faith, but have home groups etc we prioritise above church attendance every single week, so I do wonder what realistic figures would be tbh. (Incidentally I wouldn't describe my faith as a 'hobby', for the couple of posters earlier who equated it to one - it's central to my life, who I am, and every decision I make, not an optional extra as that implies. I think it's these sorts of comments that do a lot of harm to relations between people with different views and can widen the gaps between them socially - some comments like those have come across as a bit sneery).

Anyway, I agree that schools should be non-religious, but for different reasons (as well as thinking they shouldn't be discriminatory, obviously). My dcs attend the local cofe VC school (therefore the type where admissions criteria has nothing to do with religion), and although the school is generally very good, one of the few things I don't like about it is the way they have these pseudo christian assemblies and have to say prayers at lunch time etc. i was there once when one of my dcs teachers lead them in their usual lunchtime prayer - i don't know for certain but I'm fairly sure he's an atheist from some of the conversations we've had. I don't see why he should have to do that - he was obviously uncomfortable.

Also as a christian I don't particularly want my dcs being taught you have to bow your head or put your hands together & close your eyes to pray (where's that in the bible?!), along with any other bits and pieces of what people who don't actually believe themselves mistakenly think Christians believe (because its what they were taught at school). My then 8yr old said she found it weird when 'you can tell some teachers are just saying a prayer but it doesn't mean anything to them' in assembly - what's the point in such a facade, who does it help?!

Just as an aside, which is not entirely relevant, but I grew up in a non-religious family, attended a school which was as secular as you can get in the uk I suspect - very mixed, multicultural & multifaith school. We learnt a lot about Islam & Hinduism as it was relevant to many & I have absolutely no recollection of 'broadly christian in character' assemblies - I really don't think we can have had them. I do remember one girl who was a Christian, who everyone thought was a bit odd & square. Don't think any of it had much influence on my road to Damascus-type conversion as an adult, so maybe that's why I don't feel people need christian teaching in school!

Sorry that was a bit long. And waffly..

YANBU

Oh, and by the way, there are no such thing as "secularist and atheist values".

Thank you

No time to catch up now, but according to the CofE , in 2011 weekly attendance was barely 1 million.
I've read that two years later it's actually down to about 800,000, but I went with the higher figure since it makes the point anyway. The Christian population is mostly a myth now.

Add to that the confusion in the figures where there are people like me who are not xtian but attend xtian services occasionally, there aren't that many people who go beyond what I would call being culturally xtian to actual observers of the faith.

Anotherviper, Yes that is just CofE so the number of Christians will be higher. Not to mention that if we're talking about religion in general we should count Muslims, Hindus and so on. It is significant though that the official church that is claimed by some posters to be such a central part of society is in fact a fading minority. For the most part older people who will not be replaced by younger members.

I do understand why 'hobby' makes you feel uncomfortable. I forget who used the word, but while it might be a bit disparaging if used in everyday conversation it does highlight a valid point. To an atheist the whole subject is fiction and no more significant than any other pastime. It's useful to remind people of this where there is any suggestion that religions should be accorded special rights and privileges.

I like your point about pseudo Christian assemblies. While I'm actually an atheist I have tried to imagine how I'd feel about compulsory worship if I were religious and I think I'd still find it distasteful. Religion either has no value at all or it's too important to be treated as something trivial. To be put on like a party hat to 'get in the spirit of things'

Its a hard one.

However, I see in the ultra orthodox jewish community (I am NOT part of this community) a total refusal to let their children mix with children of other faiths.

So here are the choices:

a) state funded voluntary aided school teaching national curriculum
b) private jewish school teaching cut down private school version of the national curriculum
c) illegal school, with no secular education resulting in the children leaving school illiterate / inumerate and unemployable.

I prefer a.

But equally I don't think anyone should have religuious values foisted on them if they don't want.

I agree. I come from a country where all state education is secular. If you want a religious education you go to the appropriate school. These are private but are a range of pricing from little to huge ensures it is a viable choice. The govt also give these schools funding appropriate to student levels. It works.

Summary of the 2011 census figures on religion. Less than 60% ticking the Christian box, the next largest group is 'No religion' with over 25% ; the next largest after that is actually the 7.2% who didn't tick any box at all.

If different questions were posed my guess is that the majority position nowadays is apatheist. 'Cultural Christians' and many of the 'no religion' and non-tickers. Religion just doesn't matter to most people - unless as with 'faith schools' it impinges on their lives.

so the majority of the Uk population ie 60% define themselves as being a Christian and only 25% have no religion
These are answers as given to the direct question.I find it ludicrous that some posters seem to thinkthere are better ways of assessing whether someone posesses a belief than by asking them in a confidential survey whether they are a Christian.

People interested in the numbers of Christians in the UK might be interested in this from the British Humanist Association.

Ah well, we all find different things ludicrous.

I do wonder what the number of box tickers would be if those people hadn't mostly grown up with some sort of school assembies with cosy assumptions of a creator god and Jesus being their friend and Christians being good people.

Martorana - you didn't give the link...

This perhaps:

'In a poll conducted by YouGov in March 2011 on behalf of the BHA, when asked the census question ‘What is your religion?’, 61% of people in England and Wales ticked a religious box (53.48% Christian and 7.22% other) while 39% ticked ‘No religion’.

When the same sample was asked the follow-up question ‘Are you religious?’, only 29% of the same people said ‘Yes’ while 65% said ‘No’, meaning over half of those whom the census would count as having a religion said they were not religious.

Less than half (48%) of those who ticked ‘Christian’ said they believed that Jesus Christ was a real person who died and came back to life and was the son of God.

Asked when they had last attended a place of worship for religious reasons, most people in England and Wales (63%) had not attended in the past year, 43% of people last attended over a year ago and 20% of people had never attended. Only 9% of people had attended a place of worship within the last week.

The Humanist Society of Scotland commissioned a separate poll asking the Scottish census question, ‘What religion, religious denomination or body do you belong to?’. In response, 42% of the adult population in Scotland said ‘None’.

When asked ‘Are you religious?’ 56% of the same sample said they were not and only 35% said they were.'

For sure there are better ways of assessing whether someone posesses a belief than by asking them in a confidential survey whether they are a Christian....by actually asking them a little bit about what they believe rather than just what cultural label they choose.

Sorry- article about the census and Christians here

I find the point about it being a proxy question for ethnicity particularly interesting.

YANBU but as longs as there's no separation between State and Church, is this likely to happen?

My DH at the moment is having a debate on Twitter with our local MP about this same issue.
Our local Secondary school got an outstanding ofsted report recently (which is hard given the new ofsted guidelines as I understand), but when checking the admissions criteria it appears to be a religious school that only takes in kids who are religious (even our local catholic/CofE primaries only take in about half religious children, the rest are not catholic or christian). So our children, as children of aethists, can't go to the local secondary school. I'm a buddhist (well raised a buddhist) and my DCs can't even go on that basis because there is no buddhist temple nearby and you need to go regularly to a place of worship if you stand a chance of getting in to this school.
How fair is this? The MP is kind of dodging the issue on Twitter saying that it is legal for schools to do this obviously, but won't be drawn on her personal view on this issue. She has sent a letter to my DH citing the admissions policies etc etc which is already common knowledge anyway. My DH just wants to know her position on it, whether she is in favour of religious schools or not, so that he can make an informed choice whether or not to vote for the MP in the future.

Good for your DH - it's totally unfair. I don't know if the Fair Admissions campaign could help him; the NSS or BHA also may have some expertise in this area.

Hopefully at some point MPs will wake up to the fact that faith schools are not universally popular.