to CELEBRATE the first FGM prosecutions!

[Sallyingforth]

Breaking news on BBC. Hope they send them down for a long sentence as an example to others.

[handcream]

Still think the PC police would be out.. Thing is the check would be too late. The damage would have already been done. However, if that is the case the girl is immediately removed from the family. No second chances, no bleating your DH made you do it or an Aunt somewhere back in Somali.


But that wouldnt happen would it.

FWIW - I would ban the veil. Another example of men wanting to control women.

[GillTheGiraffe]

We delude ourselves by convincing ourselves that we are acting 'multiculurally' when in reality we are failing to support the vulnerable.

[namechangesforthehardstuff]

PC police would be 'out'? Aren't they already 'out'?

[namechangesforthehardstuff]

[neverthebride]

Honestly come on! Those that are saying it's 'in the name of culture or religion' are ignoring the fact that it is an INDIVIDUAL INTERPRETATION of Religion or culture.

The same as acts of terrorism or other violence against others is not a true representation of religion or culture but the acts of individuals using religious script to justify their beliefs and actions.

Many religious scripts condemn homesexuality and adultery among many unacceptable ideas.

Many, many unacceptable things could be considered to be 'Religious' depending on how the religious text is interpreted.

FGM is not considered a religious act by an enormous population of adherents of Islam, it is NOT a religious 'requirement' any more than is the killing of others.

Those that are saying it is a requirement of any religion or culture are incorrect and ill-informed and are risking accusation of xenophobia.

[caruthers]

Nobody is saying it's a requirement they are saying it's a factor.

If we need to extinguish this blight we have to be frank.

And if that means upsetting some people then that's OK in my book.

[Sallyingforth]

PC police or not, I don't think it is necessary to target the Somali community or any other with special measures.
If a few prosecutions result in heavy sentences and are highly publicised, the word will soon get around that FGM is not permitted in the UK.
It seems that the law as it stands has not allowed a number of known cases to be prosecuted. *That" is what has to change, the inadequate legislation. I've written to my MP demanding it to be done.
Have you all?

[missymarmite]

Fgm and male circumcision are two totally different things. I don't particularly approve of male circumcision, but if it is carried out under proper medical condisions with anaesthesia etc, it does not impair sexual function or cause long term pain, or reduce sexual pleasure. Whereas fgm not only prevents a woman from enjoying sex but is dangerous and makes childbirth much more dangerous.

Fgm is purely a cultural thing, nothing to do with religion, whereas male circumcision is something prescribed by both Islam and Judaism. Stamping out male circumcision would be much harder because you would be basically forcing people to decide between their religion and the state. Comparing the two is unhelpful.

[caruthers]

missymarmite

The WHO disagrees with you that religion doesn't play a part in this barbaric practice,

Cultural, religious and social causes

The causes of female genital mutilation include a mix of cultural, religious and social factors within families and communities.

www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/

[GillTheGiraffe]

Who cares what lame excuse the practitionerstry to make for doing it.

IT'S BARBARISM. PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

[Stockhausen]

It's one of the few things that actually make me feel lightheaded just thinking about it. The 'reasons' for FGM are as abhorrent as the practice, and it makes me feel physically ill to think of females assisting or carrying out this butchery.

Let this be the start of many prosecutions, and the beginning of the end of this barbaric torture.

Interesting to see a commentator on the news, saying twenty years ago we couldn't even talk about it, so hopefully it's progress of some sort.

[QueenoftheSarf]

But you know what I'd like to see? A thread about FGM where male circumcision isn't brought up within 5 posts.

Why AnnieLobeseder? Don't you think that all ritual mutilation of a child's genitals should be highlighted at every opportunity for the grossly monstrous and morally reprehensible act that it is?

Do you know what I'd like to see? I'd like to see people stop trying to trivialise and normalise male circumcision which is carried out for purely ritual purposes and to stop trying to argue that morally, it's not every bit as much an abusive act of mutilation of a child's genitals as FGM is.

People who try to justify it in terms of degrees of mutilation have no argument. Would it be OK to chop the tip of a child's finger off for ritual purposes? No. Would it be worse to chop it off down to the first joint, or the second joint or the knuckle? Yes, quite possibly in terms of the degree of damage inflicted and the loss of function but would it be morally acceptable to do any of the above for no reason other than carrying out a ritual? No. Absolutely not.

The particularly sad thing about male ritual genital mutilation is that it has become so normalised. People think it's OK to cut off a part of a child's penis because they have been conditioned to think that he can manage quite well without it. We can adapt to life and manage quite adequately without lots of parts of our body - the tip of a finger being one - but does that mean it's ever OK to cut it off for no good reason? Absolutely not.

At least FGM does, quite rightly, fill people with horror and righteous indignation and is illegal in most civilised countries. Those who are found to have perpetrated such vile and unspeakable acts against girls and women are demonised, vilified and, hopefully, called to account for their actions.

We are conditioned to believe that FGM is practiced by uneducated, unenlightened uncivilised peoples who live in dark, uncivilised corners of the world. Male ritual genital mutilation however, is far more prevalent and is not only practiced by uneducated, unenlightened uncivilised peoples who live in dark, uncivilised corners of the world but is also quite openly, and more importantly legally and routinely practiced by what are widely considered to be educated, enlightened people who live in what are considered to be civilised counties. And sadly, we are conditioned to think that it's acceptable, and even led to believe by some that it has health benefits.

This is the true horror of male ritual genital mutilation. It's trivialised, normalised and, most shockingly of all, legal.

[aermingers]

The only thing I'm slightly concerned about is that it happened within an NHS hospital to a woman who had already undergone FGM. I was wondering if it was some sort of corrective operation or something and the way it was done is a bit of a grey area.

I'm slightly concerned about the criminalisation of doctors who are dealing with the aftermath of FGM but obviously don't know the full facts of the case yet so will have to wait and see.

[QueenoftheSarf]

missymarmite who cares about religion and people having "to choose between religion and the State"?

Where child protection is an issue the State should always intervene and take precedence.

In a civilised world, no one should be allowed under law to make a choice to mutilate a child's genitals for ritual purposes, whether under general anaesthetic or not. It is a morally reprehensible and abusive act.

You may not find a comparison between male and female ritual genital mutilation helpful for the reasons you have cited, but I fail to see how anyone can argue about the making of a comparison between the arbitrary lopping off of different body parts.

No one would think it OK to cut off a child's ear lobes for ritual purposes although not having them would not cause much of a problem I wouldn't imagine as they have no major biological function. If people started doing that there would be a tidal wave of moral indignation because no one sees that as normal. Sadly, lopping off foreskin for no good reason has become trivialised and normalised.

There is never going to be an adequate justification for mutilating a child's body for ritual purposes. End of.

No one should be allowed to do it under any circumstances whatsoever and if they do, they should feel the full force of the law.

[FloraFox]

I'd like to see people stop trying to trivialise and normalise male circumcision which is carried out for purely ritual purposes and to stop trying to argue that morally, it's not every bit as much an abusive act of mutilation of a child's genitals as FGM is.

If circumcision was every bit as much of an abusive act of mutilation as FGM, men, who have more than enough power in their social, political, cultural and religious communities, would not be doing it to their sons. In which cultures do women predominantly have power and impose FGM on their daughters?

Also WHO would not be recommending it as a means of reducing HIV transmission while at the same time stating clearly that FGM causes only harm and no benefit.

[QueenoftheSarf]

I just can't fathom why educated, enlightened people can't see that both male and female ritual genital mutilation are acts of abuse.

This is not a matter of sexual politics. It's a matter of child protection.

Please, please tell me why and when it's ever OK to cut off or mutilate a part of a child's body that serves a biological function for no good reason?

I don't care who says it's OK, and that includes the fucking World Health Organisation.

It can never, ever under any circumstances be excusable to cause any child, be they male or female, harm, pain or suffering for no justifiable reason.

The fact that anyone can claim that it is beggars belief.

[AnnieLobeseder]

I replied to your question before you even asked it, at 14:09:08.

Male circumcision is a terrible thing. Much like piercing the ears of babies, it's a cultural tradition that causes pain and has the potential for permanent damage and infection. I'd like to see both practices outlawed.

But FGM is more painful, both in the short and long term, causes long-term suffering in 100% of its victims and is a completely different thing to male circumcision.

Comparing the two and discussing them as if they have any relevance to each other diminishes both and is, IMO, completely counter-productive in getting either practice stopped.

[GillTheGiraffe]

I'm slightly concerned about the criminalisation of doctors who are dealing with the aftermath of FGM but obviously don't know the full facts of the case yet so will have to wait and see.

Me too.

[ToffeePenny]

Why are parents of these girls not immediately prosecuted with torture, sexual assault, and grievous bodily harm and sentenced accordingly. If you have parental responsibility and this is done then you have ALLOWED the worst kind of child abuse to occur, even if you didn't wield the scalpel.

This ^^

[QueenoftheSarf]

In my view AnnieLobeseder to focus on one being somehow more acceptable or palatable than the other detracts from the monstrosity of both acts and has led us to where we are today with male ritual genital mutilation being widely acceptable and, worst of all, legal.

Both male and female ritual genital mutilation need to be outlawed so that both, like other inhumane and immoral acts, are consigned to the dustbin of history and are not tolerated in any civilised society.

Medical associations in Scandinavian counties - which are the countries most widely acknowledged throughout the world as being civilised, enlightened and progressive - actively lobby for this to be done.

[QueenoftheSarf]

Why are parents of these girls not immediately prosecuted with torture, sexual assault, and grievous bodily harm and sentenced accordingly. If you have parental responsibility and this is done then you have ALLOWED the worst kind of child abuse to occur, even if you didn't wield the scalpel

Can this not be equally applicable to the parents of boys who allow a man to lop off their 8 day old baby boy's foreskin with a scalpel without any anaesthetic? Of course it can yet everyone knows that it goes on every day of the week and it's perfectly legal.

I simply can't understand why there is such apathy and acceptance towards it happening to boys and yet such rage and indignation about it happening to girls.

Both are equally vile and equally monstrous. Both are equally unjustifiable and both are equally abusive and both should be illegal.

It shouldn't matter what the long term effects of either practice are. That shouldn't come into it.

The acts themselves and the motivations behind them are both fundamentally harmful and wrong.

[FloraFox]

They are not equally vile and monstrous, that's both ridiculous and offensive to the suffering of girls and women who are victims of FGM.

[QueenoftheSarf]

It is quite clear and simple. Ritual mutilation of the genitals of both males and females, causing harm, distress, pain, disfigurement and/or loss of function, however severe, constitutes child abuse.

Both are wrong.

Both should be illegal.

This is NOT a matter of sexual politics or of gender-driven bias or debate.

[FloraFox]

Of course it is a matter of sexual politics.

Ritual circumcision happens in cultures where men have substantial power. Most of those cultures do not practise FGM.

FGM also happens in cultures where men have substantial power. If circumcision was harmful to men, men wouldn't do it.

Can you imagine any possibility of FGM happening in a culture where women have substantial power or even something close to equality?

[SkaterGrrrrl]

Delighted to hear if this prosecution. Its high time this abuse was punished.