to CELEBRATE the first FGM prosecutions!

[Sallyingforth]

Breaking news on BBC. Hope they send them down for a long sentence as an example to others.

[bochead]

I'm not buying the "can't bring a prosecution cos the issue is oh so complex line" from the establishment at all.

At the moment I can only conclude that our entire current legal, political , and social establishment to protect children should be labelled "not fit for purpose" if it is truly "too complex an issue to obtain successful prosecutions".

This is a nation that locks people up without trial under the anti-terrorism laws, and that regularly removes children from loving homes because they might be "at risk of future emotional abuse".

Any child who isn't seen by any sort of medical professional for longer than 18 months brings up red flags for this dumb layman. If you consider the demands of the school attendance Nazi's, the current vaccination schedules, normal childhood illnesses and accidents, it's gotta be a VERY rare child who genuinely has no cause to ever see even the practice nurse.

SS can also order a medical exam at any time without having to give any reasons whatsoever to the parent. How hard would it be to include a quick check for this - it's a physical mutilation, so obvious to spot by any trained professional with a cursory glance as part of the normal childhood height/weight checks that medics seem so fond of doing at the drop of a hat.

Why are younger siblings knowingly being left in the homes where this is KNOWN to have occurred to the eldest girl? Why are SS not warning and monitoring EVERY family where the mother is FGM that in this country the practice is considered abhorrent and illegal and if practiced will result in the immediate removal on a permanent basis of ALL that couple's children including the boys?

Why are parents of these girls not immediately prosecuted with torture, sexual assault, and grievous bodily harm and sentenced accordingly. If you have parental responsibility and this is done then you have ALLOWED the worst kind of child abuse to occur, even if you didn't wield the scalpel.

Stopping this being common practice in certain communities is very simple if we only had the will. (I accept there will always be one or two sneaky people who circumvent any law we write).

[JaneinReading]

Thanks for the link.
"(1)A person is guilty of an offence if he excises, infibulates or otherwise mutilates the whole or any part of a girl’s labia majora, labia minora or clitoris.

(2)But no offence is committed by an approved person who performs—

(a)a surgical operation on a girl which is necessary for her physical or mental health, or

(b)a surgical operation on a girl who is in any stage of labour, or has just given birth, for purposes connected with the labour or birth.

[JaneinReading]

Okay I don't understand what the doctor is alleged to have done here. Infibulate from this definition below what would have been done to her as a little girl - labia removed. That cannot be what he did to her after birth. Surely all he did after birth was sew her up tight like after an episitomy. I may be utterly wrong but I'd like to know.

Wiki "Female infibulation, type III female genital mutilation (FGM)—and in some African countries as "pharaonic circumcision"—is the removal of the labia minora (inner lips) and labia majora (outer lips). When the labial tissue heals, it forms a wall of skin and flesh across the vagina and the rest of the pubic area. By inserting a twig or similar before the wound heals, a small hole is created for the passage of urine and menstrual blood."

[caruthers]

Why are parents of these girls not immediately prosecuted with torture, sexual assault, and grievous bodily harm and sentenced accordingly

It seems rather simple doesn't it?

And to be honest it really should be THAT simple to most people.

Religions/cultures that propagate this crime should be ashamed of themselves and shouldn't be allowed by law to escape punishment for what is a sick act.

There is no fine line it's abhorrent and evil.

[JaneinReading]

Explanatory notes to the Act
"Section 1 makes it an offence for a person to perform an FGM operation on a girl (subsection (1) ). Subsection (2) provides a saving for necessary surgical operations and operations carried out in connection with childbirth. However, the saving applies only if the operation is carried out: in the UK by a registered medical practitioner or registered midwife or a person training to be one (subsection (3) ); or outside the UK by overseas equivalents of such persons (subsection (4) ). Operations necessary for physical health are likely to be rare but could, for example, include the removal of relevant cancerous areas. Operations necessary for mental health could include, for example, cosmetic surgery resulting from the distress caused by a perception of abnormality or gender reassignment surgery. However, subsection (5) provides that in assessing a girl’s mental health no account is taken of any belief that the operation is needed as a matter of custom or ritual. So an FGM operation could not legally occur on the ground that a girl’s mental health would suffer if she did not conform with the prevailing custom of her community."

There is no definition of infibulation or excision. Excision means removal so if he just tightened and removed anything does he even commit an offence under this Act even if the defence did not apply? In other words if he is doing what your average plastic surgeon does on women wanting vaginal surgery (see my link above) does he act within the law?

[bochead]

There is NO religion that approves this act!

It's purely a cultural choice. Culture can and should be changed when it is so abhorrent. Even in Britain our culture has changed over time, which is why you no longer see little old ladies being burned at the stake when you go to do your weekly shop up the high street, and it's generally agreed that the local aristocracy cannot rape you before your hubby to be gets a turn as a matter of course.

I think the problem is that it's a crime so horrific that most decent, normal people cannot really accept that it even goes on, or the political will would be there to enforce zero tolerance.

[Linguini]

"In France if a mother is seen by midwives to have had FGM her DDs are monitored and parents are warned it is illegal"

That is such a simple and obvious process to take. The French really are ahead of us in so many ways.

(I feel like mentioning how France has also banned the hijab, although I wouldn't want it to seem I think a Hijab and FGM are comparable)

[neverthebride]

I work in mental health in a city with a large BME population which includes Somali and Ethiopian communities.

Prosecutions for FGM have indeed been lacking but in my experience it is not correct to say that people in the UK 'turn a blind eye'. I don't know anyone who works in primary or secondary care in my city that isn't aware of FGM and doing all they can to stop this.

I have known of children taken into LA care due to concerns the family were going to perform FGM.

I have personally received phonecalls from GPs (when I've requested several months of medication for a service user planning a trip to their country of origin) asking me if I thought they were being taken there for FGM.

I have known many women who have been victims of FGM and never met one who wasn't appalled by the practice and would not inflict it on their child. Obviously, I'm sure SOME would still support it but I haven't met them and can only speak from my personal experience.

I've even had a conversation with several Somali teen girls recently who had actually never even heard of the practice and were very distressed when their Mum explained it had happened to her. I was surprised they'd not heard of it but Mum told me it had never occurred to her to tell them about it when she had no intention of it ever happening to them.

It does happen still and should obviously be stopped and those found to be performing it should feel the full weight of the law but it is in no way still routine even amongst a lot of communities that have traditionally been supportive of it.

I just wanted to speak for the amazing women that I've met who despite being victims of this practice, see it as abhorrent. In 99% of these cases, the men in the family have been fully against it too.

And for what it's worth to those who talk about it being 'Religious or Cultural', these are families that remain observant Religiously and very active members of their community and culture. It really is only a few that continue to do this.

Those few should be dealt with but I think it's unfair to say it is still routine or 'traditional' and think the issue is often seized upon by those who have their own motives.

[caruthers]

bochead

Though no religious scripts prescribe the practice, practitioners often believe the practice has religious support.
Religious leaders take varying positions with regard to FGM: some promote it, some consider it irrelevant to religion, and others contribute to its elimination

www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs241/en/


Religion still plays a part in its practice my source is WHO.

[nicename]

I suppose the fact that the vast majority of girls are taken abroad to have it done is the big problem. It seems like the most cases are girls grabbed by 'aunties' when they go to their parents homeland for a visit. So who would be convicted in the UK? The mum would say 'I was held back as my child was mutilated but the police there would do nothing as it is our culture'.

They are not going to tell their teacher, friends etc about it when they get back to the uk are they? The pain, shame, grief, guilt (your mum/auntie/sister will be put in jail, you will be taken away, you are 'clean' - or whatever the guff spouted is - now and no man will marry you if this hasn't been done, etc) and embarassment of telling anyone would certainly stop a girl telling.

Medical staff must see this though when working with women - but do they report it?

[ukatlast]

Quote JaneinReading "We can also tighten the vagina itself in order to enhance the feelings of sexual gratification or simply to return your vagina to the way it was before childbirth. This is achieved by reconstructing the outer third of the vagina, the internal diameter and the vaginal opening. " www.harleymedical.co.uk/cosmetic-surgery-for-women/the-body/reshaping-and-tightening-of-the-female-genitalia/

Jane - that should also be illegal as well i.m.h.o. What the heck is wrong with women?

[neverthebride]

Because of my experiences (see my post above) I think it is unreasonable and discriminatory to say any woman who has been a victim of FGM should be investigated or thought to be a risk to her own children.

MOST victims in my experience would not consider doing this to their child.

A conversation (by any health or school professional) about it would probably flag up any women at risk of approving the practice being done on their children.

I feel deeply uncomfortable about victims of FGM being automatically considered as possible perpetrators of this. We know that a very few victims of sexual abuse may go on to perpetrate or excuse sexual abuse, it does not mean that they should automatically be considered a risk to their children.

[trafficwarden]

Jane, I think you need to google the relevant anatomy. Comparing reinfibulation to episiotomy repair is just ridiculous.
An episiotomy is a surgical incision which in the UK is made from the fourchette (the bottom margin of the vaginal opening) at a 45 degree angle into the muscle layer. Once it has been repaired the resulting scar should look like a 2.5 cm line from the fourchette in the direction of 7 to 8 o'clock.
Reinfibulation involves sewing up the tissue which has been cut open or torn during birth when a woman has had FGM. This tissue is where the labia and/or clitoris have been removed leaving a flat band of skin/tissue over the whole area leaving a tiny opening. Many women are cut open on their wedding night in order to achieve penetration because the opening is so small. They are then left to deal with the resulting injury which will heal and be torn again each time she endures intercourse. A baby is much larger than a penis and the physical damage which can be caused is considerable, leaving aside the mental scars. If FGM is only diagnosed at birth, the only option is to perform an anterior episiotomy - this is an incision made up the way, at 12 o'clock, from the top of the tiny opening towards the pubic mound. It's tricky and risks damage to the urethra as it is done "Blind" as you can't see the structures underneath. In the UK, rather than return it to it's pre birth condition, an approximation of the normal anatomy is attempted so the sides where the labia should be are re-fashioned. It's difficult and depends how much skin and tissue is available to work with. It bears absolutely no resemblance to an episiotomy, being at the front rather than the back so to speak.
Really, google it and you will see some graphic images and you may realise the HUGE disparity between the 2 circumstances.

[Amethyst24]

WTR infibulation, it's the closing up of the labia majora, which is done at the same time as the excision of the clitoris and labia minora. After the woman has given birth, she's "closed up" again to return her vagina to the state she was in before childbirth. I would imagine in this case the husband requested it, the woman consented and the doctor followed their wishes.

[Amethyst24]

Or, what trafficwarden said. Too slow!

I interviewed an obstetrician once who'd cared for women in childbirth who'd had FGM, and she said that if they're not cut open, the perineum would "shatter to pieces". Shudder.

[LurcioLovesFrankie]

never thanks for taking the time to post such a detailed account. I think it's really important to try to get some sense of why what seem to many of us to be obvious solutions aren't necessarily the most effective ones.

Jane - I'm really struggling to see why you find it necessary to minimise the seriousness of this horrific procedure. Yes I find the whole notion of designer vaginas horrible but saying FGM is like a labioplasty is like comparing a face lift to an acid attack. And to insist that reinfibulation is like episiotomy after posters have explained the difference with clinical precision? I'm just really struggling to see why you continue to press this impossibly implausible analogy.

[neverthebride]

Lucio - Thank you x. This is such an awful subject and obviously provokes strong emotions.

My perspective is just my own but it's from someone who has frequent contact with some of the communities that are relevant and am obliged by my profession (and my personal views!) to talk about this.

I've cried with adult women who talk about having their periods dribble out over weeks and have had to be cut to give birth. None of them wanted to do that to their children.

There are many, many brave women in these communities that are against this.

[AgaPanthers]

"There is NO religion that approves this act!

It's purely a cultural choice. "

Well no, that's far from the case.

It IS approved by many, many Islamic religious leaders, and it is considered a part of Islam by a great many. In, for instance, Indonesia Christian women converting to Islam will undergo a sunat (FGM procedure). This isn't a cultural thing, because you have might have two families, blood relatives (cousins,s ay), of the same cultural, tribal background, one who is Christian, the other who is Muslim, and the Christians absolutely will NOT circumcise their daughters (or sons), but the Muslims will.

FGM has very strong links with Islam.

[Lighthousekeeping]

"In France if a mother is seen by midwives to have had FGM her DDs are monitored and parents are warned it is illegal"

That happens here as well. I don't exactly know if it makes any difference tbh.

[NewtRipley]

This is the hospital where one of my DCs was born.

It makes me so angry.

[handcream]

Its bloody religion and culture (again!) and done in their name.

How a mother can do it to their daughers is just horrible to think about. They should hang their heads in shame.

I like the idea of checking young girls but realistically how will that happen? Everyone goes for a check or only girls from Africa? I accept that some countires like Somali will encourage this practise, will they be picked out. I really dont have a problem with that tbh but the Human Rights brigrade will be out in force..

[namechangesforthehardstuff]

I'm a colonel in the PC Brigade and a committee member in the Human Rights lobby and I'll fairly sure we think FGM is barbaric.

Maybe I missed a memo...

[oldgrandmama]

YES YES YES - about time too. I've never understood why it's taken so long here. The French were onto it years ago. Those poor girls - what they've gone through, and still go through, is just horrendous.

What is it about the UK that we're so backward about tackling things like this?

[GillTheGiraffe]

So they drop the possible prosecution against the parents who sent their daughter abroad to be mutilated and went for doctors instead.

This was expected after the DPP said last year that the first prosections would not involve identfying the victims.

Although I welcome any prosecutions for acts that may have contravened the FGM laws I do feel they could have chosen a case that sent out a clearer message to the communities that are 'commissioning' these.

[mousmous]

with the checking of girls, other countries (germany and france for example) do physical checks on every child. quick look down the pants at weigh in (striped to underwear in private consultation room) so not traumatic at all imo.