to CELEBRATE the first FGM prosecutions!

[Sallyingforth]

Breaking news on BBC. Hope they send them down for a long sentence as an example to others.

[AgaPanthers]

Actually, forms of FGM are no worse than their male equivalent. It's a matter of cultural relativism, that because westerners want to perform male circumcision, it is therefore a minor issue.

If most Americans didnt do it, it would be regarded as barbaric likewise.

[ukatlast]

AgaPanthers - I am sure I am not alone in condemning FGM and male circumcision. It was never the fashion in UK to circumcise boys except among the Jewish community, what USA does has nothing to do with it.

Most sensible human beings/parents do not wish to lop bits off their precious babies/children, regardless of their age/sex.

[msrisotto]

Thanks for making me aware of this however I'm horrified that the cases had to fall into the polices lap like this, i mean honestly, some parent requested fgm for their daughters from a fgm helpline? How incompetent are our police?

[JaneinReading]

" aermingers Fri 21-Mar-14 21:06:15
The only thing I'm slightly concerned about is that it happened within an NHS hospital to a woman who had already undergone FGM. I was wondering if it was some sort of corrective operation or something and the way it was done is a bit of a grey area.
I'm slightly concerned about the criminalisation of doctors who are dealing with the aftermath of FGM but obviously don't know the full facts of the case yet so will have to wait and see."

Yes, troubles me tioo as I said above. If the woman had FMG as a child as many will who go into NHS hospitals to give birth and is pretty tight and it's lal a bi t of a mess down there she may well need an episitomy to give birth which again no one of course objects to if needed (I had one). The NHS doctor then has to deal with the after math of all that mess of her private parts made when she was a little girl. As with all episitomy he then has to sew her back up as he did me and there is no art or science on how tight that should be and what is right or wrong. Now it may be he sowed her up enough to have sex with her husband after but tighter than most doctors would have done or may be he did something else there in the operating room which was even worse - we don't know from the reports but it certainly seems not a great case for a test case.

[JaneinReading]

Then BBC report says
"It was alleged that following a patient giving birth in November 2012, a doctor at the Whittington Hospital repaired female genital mutilation that had previously been performed on the woman, allegedly carrying out female genital mutilation himself."

[trafficwarden]

Jane, have you not grasped the anatomical difference between a mediolateral episiotomy (which is what is the preferred option in the UK) and an anterior episiotomy which is necessary in cases of FGM? There are easily accessible photos on google which show the difference. We don't know exactly what this doctor has done but repairing FGM means sewing the tissue back up so it is the same as it was before birth. In the UK that is illegal. Your episiotomy repair was in a completely different area to FGM. Do you really not understand this?

[ConferencePear]

I'm happy about the prosecution, but I won't be celebrating until we get the first conviction and a severe sentence.

[LurcioLovesFrankie]

Traffic - for some reason I don't understand, Jane refuses to acknowledge the difference. I read your thoughtful post upthread where very very carefully explained to her what the difference is. I can only assume that for some reason (perhaps because she finds the reality too horrific to grasp) that she's wilfully misunderstanding.

[Sallyingforth]

Msrisotto
If you read the reports it's nothing to do with police competence. They are bringing cases to the CPS but the legislation is too weak for prosecution. It needs to be revised urgently.
Instead of blaming the police, write to your MP.

[JaneinReading]

I am asking. The BBC report does not say what this doctor did, does it? I have not found any evidence that what he did was wrong but he might have broken the law. I am trying to find out.

I still don't understand but I don't have time to do research. The episiotomy cut is to the site (lateral), the FGM this lady had when she was younger was at the back presumably. She then has the baby whether after her hole was opened wider to let the baby out or not and then the doctor has to put it all right.

So what did he do? He made the vaginal opening tighter than it ought to be when he sewed back or he made new cuts at the back not needed for birth and then sewed them up?

[FreudiansSlipper]

Actually, forms of FGM are no worse than their male equivalent

really what forms of FGM are the removal of skin even the least evasive (and not often performed) is removal of part of the clitoris

never ever has fgm needed to be done for medical reasons

[SauceForTheGander]

freudian

Are you saying FGM is the same as male circumcision - physically?

[FreudiansSlipper]

no sorry c&p first line from aga's post

the rest id my reply, not it certainly is not

[NearTheWindymill]

Prosecution required in every single case. And prosecution of doctors who have turned a blind eye or asissted in any way too.

Had there been earlier prosecutions; fewer women would have suffered. It is a barbaric practice and it is wrong on every level and should not be tolerated in a first world country. All people regardless of race, religion or culture should be expected to comply with the law of the land. If they don't like that or wish to do that then they can live elsewhere as far as I am concerned but that does not make what they do to girls and women right.

Nobody should be allowed to excuse criminal behaviour or facilitate it and it's high time those in this country's public services stopped doing so. If women can get a prison sentence or worse for kissing or holding hands in public in some parts of the world then a prison sentence for those who maim women on purpose is chicken feed in the overall scheme of things.

[trafficwarden]

Jane - I have explained very clearly the difference in opening and closing FGM and incision and repair of a mediolateral episiotomy. FGM does have different degrees of cutting but this case has been reported as being reinfibulation. I'm not sure how you have the time to repeatedly post on here yet cannot google the relevant pictures.
Imagine looking down at your own body. Where the pubic hair grows over your pubic bone it then separates down either side of the labia majora. Inside the labia majora are the labia minora (commonly referred to as lips) which enclose and protect the clitoris at the top, the urethra (opening to the bladder) and then the introitus or opening to the vagina. When FGM infibulation has been performed, depending on the degree, the clitoris is removed along with the labia minora. Then the labia majora are sewn together over the whole gap and what is left is a relatively smooth band of tissue over the whole area leaving only a tiny opening over the introitus. Looking at a woman who has had this done it appears as if she has no genitalia at all - no lumps, bumps, folds of skin, openings, nothing - just a smooth band, a tiny opening or hole which is sometimes barely visible like a doll or clothes dummy.
The woman has to be cut open at the front not the back, right up to where the pubic hair normally separates. This is an anterior episiotomy. Sometimes a second mediolateral episiotomy is also required. The actual entrance to the vagina is not the issue here. It is the sewing up again of the tissue ABOVE this that is called reinfibulation and is illegal. I'm not sure how much more graphic I can be.

[theQuibbler]

I think prosecution is quite a small, if important, part of any drive to end FGM in the UK. It is good in that it raises the profile and sends a clearer message that it is seen as as wrong.

But, the only thing that is actually going to make a difference in the long run is educating those women and communities that carry this out practive and giving them the power, will and desire to stop it themselves.

These women are not doing it because they are barbaric child mutilators. They do it because they, genuinely, believe it is in the best interests of their children and the alternative is much worse.

All of this, "third world" rhetoric just alienates those that need to listen.

Stopping FGM cannot just be done by the legal system and ill-informed indignation. It is far more complex and nuanced than that.

[FreudiansSlipper]

agree Quibbler

These mother are doing what they think is best for their daughters, the fear of them not being fit for marriage is something we in our society can not relate too

education is the way forward

[Sallyingforth]

So what are you all going to do about this?
Are you just going to sit on your bums saying how important it is to prosecute?
Or are you going to tell your MPs to get the law tightened up so that the CPS can prosecute more of the cases being brought to them?

[Sallyingforth]

If you want to know why it's so difficult to prosecute these people, listen to the DPP speaking on the BBC news:
downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/radio4/wato/wato_20140321-1453a.mp3
The relevant part starts at 17:50.
It's only available for another 7 days

[FreudiansSlipper]

I did work at a dv centre that ran support groups for refugee women

often very closed off communities

one thing we can start with is trying to understand life within these communities rather than calling them barbaric and cruel people it helps no one

[theQuibbler]

Yes FreudiansSlipper - "these people" are mothers, daughters, wives, aunts. Demonising them - even when what is being done by them is unimaginable - is pointless and far more likely to do harm than good if the outcome is to halt FGM, rather than incredulously point out how barbaric these funny foreigners are.

[NearTheWindymill]

But Freudian these people chose to live in our society - if they want to operate and live illegally - they can do it elsewhere. I think we have been far far too tolerant for far too long and that is the root of the problem. They live here and that reap the advantages, compliance and integration are the price.

And the "fathers" in ireland forced open the pelvises of women three generations ago in the name of catholocism. What understanding were they entitled to for abusing women against their will for their own good. Same difference and a bit less understanding for cultural beliefs would go rather further. It is illegal - end of and you way has prevailed since the 1980s and it's still going on.

[caruthers]

But they are barbaric and they most certainly are not 'funny foreigners' we need to stop making cultural excuses for this abuse and start confronting it head on.

No thin line it's unacceptable and instead of being understanding we need to prosecute and punish. There are NO excuses for this practice in the UK under any circumstances.

[FreudiansSlipper]

I think you would find most of them would go home tomorrow if they could live safely there was not much of a choice for many

I am not against prosecutions being made, I want more education and support for these communities

come here live by our rules ffs this is a line from the ukip manifesto. it just does not happen, never has and never will (british certainly ignore it) as that is not how people should be made to live. we live in a multicultural society we should be learning to respect people as humans this does not mean accepting their views are being right

[trafficwarden]

Education and support are the key. I've worked in a country where a huge section of the community embraced FGM as normal. They had never seen female genitalia that had not been cut. Their culture demanded a woman be cut or she would never be considered for marriage, another cultural must. It was very hard to understand from the perspective of a woman who had always had freedom, choice and knowledge of my human rights.
I've also worked in a "Western" country with a large immigrant population who were isolated from the wider community. There were key workers and specialist midwives who went to great lengths to educate and support the women of those communities. Targeting the elders and filtering through the generations seemed to be essential.