to think people are being deliberately perverse about Council/HA..

[fideline]

....housing?

1. Social (council or HA) rents are not subsidized.

2)Social (council or HA) tenancies are not a form of welfare benefit.

It's not that hard to grasp is it?

Oh good. Fingers crossed.

When I lived in a gardenless flat I had a little red riding hood style basket by the front door permanently stocked with paperback, sunglasses, sun block etc. So when i fancied an hour in the garden I could just chuck a bottle of water in and go. Made nipping to the garden feel much less of a faff, but I might just be v disorganised .

Whine The triple whammy of low wages, high housing costs and increasing population scares the hell out of me. It is astounding to me that there isn't mass panic/ marches on parliament/ urgent debates in the media.

Depressing myself again now

I worry for my children and what sort of homes they may end up in which means I worry we may never be rid of them!!

There's two views on the HA properties:

1. They pay for themselves, so they are not a subsidized
2. The market could bear higher rents, so they are subsidized.

Neither is more "right" than the other; rather, it's more what kind of role you think government should have in the housing market.

I'd love it if council and HA tenants could sometimes acknowledge their good fortune wrt rent and security. The situation for private renters in this country is absurd. And the fact that the rent is often paying off mortgages for multiple buy to letters is wrong on so many levels. Especially as the rent is often so high that people on average incomes need a Housing Benefit top-up.

There's two views on the HA properties:

1. They pay for themselves, so they are not a subsidized
2. The market could bear higher rents, so they are subsidized.

Neither is more "right" than the other; rather, it's more what kind of role you think government should have in the housing market.

__

With all due respect, this is complete nonsense. The word "subsidy" has a specific meaning- just like an other single word in the English language. And the only point on your list that meets the actual definition of the word subsidy is point 1.

You see Truffle I can accept a description such as 'the rental potential of social housing is under-realised' or some such business guff. I just can't concede that such a situation can reasonably be described as subsidization.

I remember enough Economics to know that it is not an uncontested truth that demand should determine prices. Not all economies are pure market economies. The UK housing market certainly isn't. Ergo 'the price the market could bear' is not the 'norm' and a cost-based pricing structure is not a deviation that needs explaining away as a 'subsidy'.

Can we all just agree that there are lots of words that would better describe the situation than the wholly inaccurate 'subsidy'?

What Saucy said, too.

Why do people think they can bend the meanings of words to suit themselves?

The opportunity cost is a subsidy. I don't understand how this could be a matter of dispute.

Minty I think social tenants do appreciate their luck.

I am shared-ownership leaseholder. I appreciate that opportunity, although it has drawbacks.

Many O/occupiers of a certain vintage doubtless appreciate their luck in making large equity gains.

Why do you think social tenants in particular should express gratitude? Where? How?

'Opportunity cost' and 'subsidy' are not synonyms. They just aren't.

Well ... on Mumsnet threads maybe?

On the other hand Minty you are quite right that private tenants are being royally shafted by their artificially inflated rents. That is the scandal, the anomaly, the problem.

Sigh. Because making less profit on something than you potentially could does not meet the definition of the word subsidy. Google it. It just means it's not for profit.

Something is only subsidized if it's costing the owner/supplier more to produce/maintain than they receive back in renumeration.

I think many people who would have been on the housing ladder by now, as their parents were, and what was so normal just a few years ago and now have to pay extortinate rents in the private sector suddenly want a council house because of the cheaper rent and security.
It wasn't that long ago when people who lived in social housing were looked down on by the very people that want them now, because of the economic climate.
It's down to jealousy in some cases, and I really don't get why people think, just because they're paying high rents everybody else should.

Yes, except of course that house prices mainly dictate the level of rent in the private sector - so I agree, blame the bankers and all the foreign investment in housing which is allowed to go unchecked as someone said earlier on the thread.

But a private landlord just has to ride it out for 25 years and then gets an enormous asset paid for by someone else. Nice work if you can get it .

'Opportunity cost' and 'subsidy' are not synonyms. They just aren't.

I agree. The opportunity cost equals the subsidy in this case.

I've heard(read) social tenants on MN absolutely eulogize their good fortune at having reasonably priced security of tenure.

A good friend also cried at my kitchen table this week because she felt that the anti-scrounger rhetoric is now turning towards council tenants and she is worried her DS will be stigmatized in some way. She feels a failure for getting divorced but MORE of a failure for accepting a social tenancy.

Terrible state of affairs (I did suggest she stop reading DM comments though)

Sigh. Because making less profit on something than you potentially could does not meet the definition of the word subsidy. Google it. It just means it's not for profit.

I don't need to google it. It's common sense. If you give me something for less than market value, you are subsidizing my purchase with your forgone profit.

Something is only subsidized if it's costing the owner/supplier more to produce/maintain than they receive back in renumeration.

Where did you get this definition of "subsidy"?

". Because making less profit on something than you potentially could does not meet the definition of the word subsidy. Google it. It just means it's not for profit."

THIS^^^

I'm somehow inadvertently casting myself as an opponent of HA rental, which I am not. I merely cannot agree that there is not an element of subsidy here.

The dictionary.

I think you've hit on something there LadyB I'm sure a lot of the people who purport to envy social rents would baulk if offered the keys to an average council flat.

I googled it. Wikipedia.

A subsidy is a form of financial or in kind support extended to an economic sector (or institution, business, or individual) generally with the aim of promoting economic and social policy.

Note the "in kind", which means payment other than money.