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AIBU?

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Original poster

To think that this 'advice' column in today's Guardian is bang out of order?

413 replies

Aliama · 01/02/2014 19:37

I'm fuming at this and wondering if I'm overreacting?

www.theguardian.com/money/2014/feb/01/dear-jeremy-work-issues-solved

Excuse me? Did I misread that? In what fucking world is it 'reprehensible' for a woman to fail to tell a prospective employer that she's planning on getting pregnant at an interview? Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it fucking illegal for a company to allow something like that to sway their decision anyway, even if said woman is already pregnant?

Ugh.

OP posts:
merrymouse · 04/02/2014 10:58

Phew, at least these are all mates. You should know whether they have partners of child bearing age or are about to settle down with another bloke and might be thinking of adopting.

MeepMeepVrooooom · 04/02/2014 10:58

From what I can see the most judgemental person on here is yourself Windy. You openly admit you have judged women on their ability to bear children and their legal right to maternity leave.

I also don't think anyone has labelled you as the devil, a bit over dramatic. Anyway I don't think the devil discriminates by gender either so it would be unfair to compare...

merrymouse · 04/02/2014 10:59

(Sorry, also obviously you can also adopt if you are in a relationship with somebody of the opposite sex and you are equally able to take paternity leave).

drspouse · 04/02/2014 11:23

Of course adoptive fathers can take a full year's adoption leave. My ex-colleague did this because his wife was self-employed so got no adoption pay whatsoever, so she took a short period unpaid and he took the nice package provided by his employer.

Perhaps as well as asking women if they are planning to get pregnant, employers should be asking men if they or their partners are planning to adopt, and then double check the partner's employment status.

RufusTheReindeer · 04/02/2014 11:26

windy what was she trying to point out?

Not sure what relevance your "modelling" and "well presented " comments have to the discussion

VegetariansTasteLikeChicken · 04/02/2014 11:48

Yes, what do you think she was trying to point out? And why else would it be relevant to the discussion? or are your just taking the piss out of female candidates? Confused weird thing to do if you ask me.

I am sure that is exactly what she was trying to do though as I have known many women and seen threads on MN where women will go to great pains tto make it clear that they DONT have kids, nr want any. And that the 9 month break they were on was a round the trip or whatever.. Because some employers are sexist dinosaurs you see.

merrymouse · 04/02/2014 11:53

extended paternity leave is theoretical until significant numbers of men actually take it.

I think you are confusing theoretical with 'not that common yet'. That is quite a risky strategy.

WindyMillerCandlewickGreen · 04/02/2014 12:07

Merrymouse, be sensible, with a new baby how many families are going to be able to afford both parents not working for a few months?

It's a great idea but do you honestly think many people will take it up? Honestly?

merrymouse · 04/02/2014 12:13

The idea is that the father takes paternity leave when the mother is working, not that you take it at the same time.

MeepMeepVrooooom · 04/02/2014 12:15

Grin this get's better and better.

merrymouse · 04/02/2014 12:16

Or when the other father or other mother is not working.

VegetariansTasteLikeChicken · 04/02/2014 12:19

Yeah.. exactly I mean your employees are on 6 figures and they can't even afford to take 2 weeks off. :( poor guys

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime · 04/02/2014 12:26

1 father in every 172 takes additional paternity leave

this is why women are discriminated against.

merrymouse · 04/02/2014 12:35

It has only been available since 2011.

Wait another 10 years and see what the take up rate is (Also bearing in mind that extended fertility window that men have…)

Equally, I would imagine that the proportion of women of employable age currently on maternity leave is quite low.

VegetariansTasteLikeChicken · 04/02/2014 12:35

1 father in every 172 takes additional paternity leave

If men don't feel they will have jobs to come back to and have employers who make it clear that having a family life is not conducive to having employment men will not take additional paternity leave

Dh would have killed for PL. He will be taking a couple days off (holiday) when we have our third baby as his employers (who he told we had a baby on the way) wanted him to start after the baby was born. And I don't even think they wouldn't have even had any legal obligation for him to take PL..but just the concern over it had them requesting him start after baby was here.

Binkybix · 04/02/2014 12:37

Honestly windy, your earlier posts clearly show that it's a strategy of yours not to employ women. That is illegal. It's funny to see the mental gymnastics you're going through to justify it. I do understand that it can put a strain on a small business, I honestly do. But I count it as a cost of doing business, the same as things like legislation. Would you ignore that too?

You have a responsibility to deliver returns for investors within the constraints of the law, not to break the law to deliver greater returns.

Binkybix · 04/02/2014 12:38

Sorry, meant the same as regulation of sales in the financial sector, not legislation.

YouAreMyFavouriteWasteOfTime · 04/02/2014 13:09

I thought men had a right to take PL/APL?

Original poster
Aliama · 04/02/2014 13:10

windy 'People seem so eager to label me as the devil that they can't see past their "judgy pants" and realise what I've been describing is extremely common and in some sectors is pretty much the norm. If you think it's limited to just me or a handful of dinosaurs you're so naive. '

I'm just baffled by this part of your comment, Windy. We've been saying all along how widespread and common this is (and how difficult it is to prove); that's why it's such a problem.

When has anyone given the impression that they think it's limited to just a handful of companies?

OP posts:
VegetariansTasteLikeChicken · 04/02/2014 13:32

I thought men had a right to take PL/APL?

He will have only been working for not quite 2 months when the baby arrives. So I don't think he is entitled to PL, but I may be wrong.

OrangeFizz99 · 04/02/2014 13:37

Dh got offered pl at £150 a week for two weeks.

He took holiday instead because we had to pay our mortgage.

moggle · 04/02/2014 13:51

I know the discussion has moved on a bit but... I think I've wrecked my career by treading water when TTC. I did a PhD at a research organisation, then after finishing took a job at the same org (with great mat leave terms) as it was the easiest option although not really what I wanted, hoping I'd be having a break soon to have a baby. After a year of TTC I was increasingly desperate to move but perversely felt even more tied to the job as surely I'd be pg soon? Finally got the guts to leave, and moved to a job which is perfect if we have a baby - much nearer home, family friendly (PT work standard etc), but it was a total sideways if not downward move for me and of course I'm still not bloody pregnant. Now we've started IVF so I really can't move now. My confidence in my abilities is rock bottom because despite my qualifications I'm now doing a job I could do in my sleep and am completely unchallenged me. I totally regret holding up my career for this, and 'settling' with a family friendly (but ultimately a bit shit) job too soon. I wish I'd just thought bugger everyone I'm doing what I want.

On the other hand, having a baby is all I've really cared about for the last 2.5 years (and pretty much since I was about 20) so perhaps I would have been shit at whatever job I decided to do because my mind was elsewhere. Sometimes I think I've fucked everything up. The thing that scares me most is that I could be stuck in this limbo for the next 10 years as we try endless rounds of IVF.

Binkybix · 04/02/2014 16:06

moggle it might be difficult but I'm sure you'll be able to progress. Lots of my friends were late developers careers wise and now have great jobs. Best of luck with the IVF. I hope it works out for you.

dilys4trevor · 04/02/2014 17:47

moggle I hope it works out. Don't give up! In my circle of friends there have been lots of IVF rounds and donor eggs and funny diets and potions and all sorts and in the end, we all got there. Thanks

MarlenaGru · 04/02/2014 17:57

Two colleagues at my previous company have taken APL. DH has a colleague who will be taking two months APL and he might take some when this baby appears depending on how life works out this year.

All these men have jobs in professional environments and at least two of them are breadwinners but have taken time off to give their partners help.

DH and I earn similar amounts so no real reason why he shouldn't take the final 3 months of my maternity leave which is completely unpaid anyway.

The real problem is not maternity leave but the fact too few men are facing up to their parental responsibilities. As we have attempted to share childcare over the last six years if DD is ill and Dh has asked to have time off it has always been met by "why can't your wife do it?" Usually by men with children themselves.

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