To send my children to Catholic school when we're not?

[JohnCusacksWife]

We are not religious and our DDs currently go to the local non-denominational primary school. Our village is in the catchment area for 2 secondary schools - a not very good non-denominational school in the neighbouring local authority and a very good RC school in our own local authority area. There is also a good non-denominational school in our area but we're not in the catchment for that and would have to make a placing request, which would probably be granted, but that would mean we'd have to make our own travel arrangements.

In the next year we'll have to decide which school our girls will go to and I'm leaning towards the RC school although they would obv not participate in any masses etc. Would IBU to send my girls to a school which happens to be RC just because its the best when (a) we don't believe and (b) I have a general problem with educating different religions separately?

Just to be clear we wouldn't be bending any rules if we chose that school....as it's in our catchment area it's technically open to all children in the area.

[Rubybrazilianwax]

Thats absolute clap trap about children in catholic schools being taught creationism. It hasn't been that way for decades. As for RE lessons, they now take the form of more circle time type settings, a lot of it is moral messages, not religious doctrine. It is the ethos that makes the catholic school, children taught to respect peers and themselves throughout all aspects of school life.

[PansOnFire]

I teach in a Catholic secondary and I'm not Catholic. I think some of the comments and assumptions made about Catholic education are quite outdated. If you look round the school and feel that it is the right choice then go for it, you will be welcomed by the school and the priests from the surrounding diocese who will have some involvement with the students.

All schools have an obligation to teach about sex, contraception, abortion etc, our school recognises this and teaches it all very factually rather than adding the emotional side to it. Sex education is taught by married, Catholic teachers and focuses on the marriage element, however, homosexuality is covered and respected. We, along with many other catholic schools in the country, are having a drive on stamping out homophobia and teaching respect and compassion. We have had previous focus on transgender bullying. The ethos of Catholicism is respect and forgiveness and you will find that it is this element that stands out the most in the school.

If you choose the Catholic school you have to respect the routines and expectations. You expect a good education from them, therefore you should be respectful and encourage your children to participate in the religious element. I don't know any Catholic schools which allow non-Catholic students to 'opt out' of mass, they join in and don't receive communion. They do go up and get a blessing though because all students are expected to participate. Prayers are also said during registration which all students are expected to be respectful of and join in.

Not all Catholic schools ram religion down students' throats or focus on making them feel guilty for not obeying the many rules of Catholicism. In most schools it is actually what you make of it, but you are expected to participate because it is basic respect. Go and look round the school, there is nothing wrong in choosing a faith school because of their great results and reputation.

[PansOnFire]

I don't think religious schools can be classed as 'segregation', anyone can apply and attend! Faith schools work on an application basis and welcome everyone from all faiths. They are also expected to follow the same curriculum as all other state schools, private schools on the other hand do not.

[PleaseJustLeaveYourBrotherAlon]

If it is being funded by tax money yanbu

[PleaseJustLeaveYourBrotherAlon]

buy you are definitely not John Cusack's wife. I am. I married him shortly after Say Anything, thanks.

[MummyPigsFatTummy]

PansonFire - it is not theoretical segregation maybe, but there can be segregation at a practical level in some areas.

For example, there are only two primary schools near my house that DD is realistically likely to get a place in - the other closest schools (0.6 miles from us) have taken no child from that far in the last 3 years. Realistically, therefore, we have two schools to pick from. One is RC. It is open to all applicants but is so over-subscribed that unless you have a sibling there and/or are baptised and are a regular attendee at Mass, you don't really have a chance. For non-RC residents of our road, therefore, there is only really one local state primary school to choose from, which does seem unfair to me.

We do live in a wildly over-subscribed area though, so I am sure it is not true in most places.

[MummyPigsFatTummy]

Ruby, did I miss something? Did someone say that children in catholic schools are taught creationism? I mentioned creationism, but to say we weren't taught it even back in the olden days.

Glad to hear the RE is moving into moral messages rather than doctrine though. Learning Gospels by rote was one of the most tedious and pointless things I have ever done (and I sat through the whole of the Christmas edition of Downton Abbey, so I do not set the bar high).

[soontobeslendergirl]

The way it works in Scotland is a bit different. Sorry for all those that already know this, it is however probably useful to point this out.

Each address in Scotland has a non-demoniational catchment school allocated at both Primary and Secondary. There are also Catholic schools at both Primary and Secondary level that have a larger catchment that overlaps over all the other catchments. You are entitled to a place at your catchment school. If you are a baptised Catholic, you indicate your choice of the Catholic school or not as the case may be. If as a non Catholic, you want to go to a Catholic school (or any other state school) then you complete a placing request and if there are spaces available then you will be allocated one (there is method for allocating if it is over subscibed and these vary from council to council).

[wyldchyld]

I attended RC primary school from Reception til end of Y3 as the daughter of a Jewish mother and extremely atheist father - from a Catholic family. This was 1995 so a while ago! In the end, we were removed from the school by my parents - we had it pointed out constantly by several members of staff that myself and DSis "didn't belong there" - we were the only non RC in the school. I have memories of the entire school being taken up for communion / a blessing and the school secretary standing behind me with her hands on my shoulders to stop me going up, despite the Priest (who was lovely) saying I was welcome to go up for a blessing. As a tiny school, the children stood in front of the alter and looked out the windows i.e. at me for a communal prayer - I was the only child sat on the benches being stared at by the other children aged 7. I was distraught.

I know things have changed and I went through a bad experience but myself and DSis were definite outsiders and not welcome by quite a few. The other kids picked up on this and I ended up being badly bullied. One teacher (I was 4 or 5) said that we had to convert non RCs and make them see everything in the world belonged to Jesus and that I should work extra hard as I lived in a non RC house. I was desperate to please, having been told my parents (particularly my dad) were going to hell and drew crosses on some of the furniture. My Mum wasn't impressed and told the teacher to be more careful with her phrasings - my earliest memory of primary school (reception year) is following this meeting, the teacher standing over me and screaming at me for being an ungodly child in front of the class.

We left before contraception / sex etc but my classmates were told it was WRONG.

[WhereIsMyHat]

Our local RC schools have quite strict admissions critera as they are so over subscribed (60 spaces and 170 applicants last year at most local school!), one of them has a catchment of five streets AND all children need to be baptised before 6 months of age. It sounds like the school you are considering does not have these tight rules in order to get a place?

My children attend/ will attend a RC school. My eldest moved there from a non denominational school. I find the RC school better for him on so many levels. We are catholic so take no issue with prayers, blessing themselves ect but it may be something you need to decide if you're comfortable with?

[JohnCusacksWife]

Thanks to everyone for your comments. It's given me a lot to think about. There are undoubtedly elements of Catholic teaching that I have difficulty with and realistically I don't know to what extent I'd be able to ignore that. On the other hand I want my children to go to the best school they can.

Our own local authority has invested heavily in its education services and is now reaping the benefits but unfortunately, due to a catchment anomlay, our non-denom secondary is in the neighbouring LA which has not made the same level of investment and where results are significantly worse. The unfairness of that rankles.

I guess I need to mull all this over and see whether I can square my conscience.

[5Foot5]

YANBU. DD goes to a RC school. She is Catholic but a significant proportion of the children there are not. Like a previous poster has said, they welcome children from all faiths and none but it is a given that the school has a Catholic-ethos and you must be prepared to accept that.

I recognize what you say about Muslim pupils. Our area is not especially ethinically diverse but there are Muslim pupils, certainly at her primary one of her best friends was from a Muslim family.

Oh and as for:

They would not attend mass because we're not catholic. They would opt out of that along with the other non-RC pupils.

Do they get that option then? I think everyone at DDs school has to attend the mass, though obviously they cannot all take communion. What's the problem with sitting through the mass anyway? I occasionally go when it is a significant event and I am not RD - it's not that different to a CofE service, just a bit more performance and a bigger congregation!

[5Foot5]

^^ I am not RC!

[soontobeslendergirl]

The RC High school we almost applied to said in their literature "We welcome children of all faiths and none"

[Tommy]

I work in a Catholic school and while we do welcome all faiths and none, priority is given to baptised Catholic pupils so it would depend on how oversubsribed or not the school is as to whether you'd get in.
Also, in our school, if you said you weren't going to let your child go to mass etc we would gently point you in the direction of the nearest non-denominational school - we don't allow students to opt out.

[GwendolineMaryLacey]

Yanbu. As a practising Catholic who jumped through all he hoops to get dd1 into our nearest Catholic primary I can't see any problem. What I object to is people lying and pretending to be churchgoers to get into the school, not openly applying as a non Catholic and then getting a place. DD1's school is oversubscribed so no non Catholics there but there were non Catholics in my school in the dark ages and it was never a problem.

[IamMummyhearmeROAR]

I teach in a Catholic school. We have pupils from all faiths and none at all. All children are expected to attend mass and stand respectfully at prayer times. Non Catholic children are invited at communion time to file forward to receive a blessing. I know of only one child whose parent insists they have nothing to do with anything related to Catholicism (but then they are also forbidden to take part in dance and music too). Personally I feel if one doesn't wish a child to be part of what is the core of a school's ethos then maybe they should attend elsewhere.

[Caitlin17]

On the question of hypocrisy it's hypocritical to send your child to a religious school if you don't buy into it. It is however selfish of parents who want special treatment because of their religious views to expect other tax payers to pay for that special treatment and at the same time refuse to allow non religious pupils in their school.

I do have more sympathy with the non religious parents if they are stuck with the nearest school being a religious one , than the poster who was complaining about her RC school being full.

As for parents and Church making some contribution unless that is significant (I.e what it actually costs) then I think it is hugely hypocritical to take state funding but exclude on the basis of relgion.

[JohnCusacksWife]

I didn't phrase it very well when I said they would opt of mass ...what I meant was taking an active role i.e. taking communion. They would obv be in the room.

[Caitlin17]

JohnCusacksWife tbh the more I think about it don't see why you should have to go along with any of it if it's your local school which you are paying for. It'd be different if you'd sent them to Ampleforth but wanted to opt out. So apologies, hypocritical isn't fair.

I couldn't have given the RC's attitude to abortion, contraception, homosexuality, protecting the Church rather than children as I'd find the Church's teaching on this impossible to reconcile what I would have said to my son on these issues.

[Slatecross]

OP they wouldn't be allowed to take communion as they're not Catholics. If it's your only viable school then good luck but I think it's important to be mindful of what you're letting yourself in for, which really is a Catholic education.
My sister teaches at a Catholic school and one of the parents is very vocal about how he thinks Catholic doctrine is crap. He's entitled to his opinion but the outcome had been his children being confused by two sets of messages, and the rest of the parents (who are overwhelmingly Catholic) thinking he's a dick.

[Slatecross]

And, to add, some of the more religious parents aren't keen on their children socialising with the kids of the very vocal parent as they don't wang their children coming home saying "Johnny says there's no such thing as Heaven/transubstantiation/mortal sin/confession" etc etc.

[Financeprincess]

I think you're being selfish, OP. Sorry.

[lilyaldrin]

How is it selfish?

[Financeprincess]

She's planning to send her children to a school espousing values she doesn't agree with, because is so concerned with grabbing what she sees as the best teaching for her kids. That's why. Flame away!