To send my children to Catholic school when we're not?

[JohnCusacksWife]

We are not religious and our DDs currently go to the local non-denominational primary school. Our village is in the catchment area for 2 secondary schools - a not very good non-denominational school in the neighbouring local authority and a very good RC school in our own local authority area. There is also a good non-denominational school in our area but we're not in the catchment for that and would have to make a placing request, which would probably be granted, but that would mean we'd have to make our own travel arrangements.

In the next year we'll have to decide which school our girls will go to and I'm leaning towards the RC school although they would obv not participate in any masses etc. Would IBU to send my girls to a school which happens to be RC just because its the best when (a) we don't believe and (b) I have a general problem with educating different religions separately?

Just to be clear we wouldn't be bending any rules if we chose that school....as it's in our catchment area it's technically open to all children in the area.

[Birdsighland]

I was raised RC and I think they explained the Adam + Eve story as they lost their trust in god and the snake broke Eve down. Out of interest, how do the other christian churches interpret the A + E story. Is it very different to Eve being hoodwinked by snake? Then Adam being guilty by association.

Also, there are many 'truths' being imparted in all schools. Maybe just the tenor of something can impart a value. For what it's worth, most people can filter out received wisdom quite well. Or was that just me?

[AnneElliott]

Ds goes to a catholic school and while he and DH are catholic, I am not. His school is great though and has a brilliant ethos about it. They are very strict, but the religion bits are not shoved down their throats as it were. There are prayers every day (5 times a day), mass once a week and visits from the priest. Although they teach the catholic views, the do talk about homosexuality and stuff like that and very respectfully as well. I would say if you visit and like it then send them.

[mothergothel2]

As long as RC schools continue to mooch off your taxes you should do what gives your child the best start in life and pick the school on that basis.

[Clobbered]

If the Catholic school is otherwise a good fit for your kids, I would go for it. Your children are much more likely to share your beliefs than end up being 'indoctrinated' by the school. We sent ours to a catholic school (we are C of E but not very actively so) because we liked the generally caring ethos and focus on good behaviour (I'm guessing the code of behaviour is what appeals to the Muslims in your area). The kids can let the catholic bits wash over them and there is no pressure to conform in any way. I think it's likely to be the same wherever these days. I think only around 40% of the kids in the school are actually catholic now.

[Caitlin17]

I think the deal in Scotland was the state got the buildings which belonged to the church free at the start of the 19th century and that is held up as the reason why the state in Scotland has to support RC schools. After all they got the buildings free and didn't have to build them!

This overlooks of course it was many, many decades ago, land values were not inflated then and all maintenance and staff costs ever since have been paid for by the state. There simply is no justification for a school in Scotland paid for by the state excluding children on the basis of relgion.

I'm not aware of private RC schools (there may be in the west) There was the boys' school at Fort Augustus - and that ended so well.

I'm also not aware of Scotland having any of these hybrid voluntary aided schools. It's either state or private, albeit the private schools will provide individual bursaries.

So far as England unless the Church is paying all or a substantial proportion of all running costs (buildings, staff and materials) it is hypocritical to exclude non religious pupils.

[DanceParty]

I'm not too worried about them being obviously different

Then you are being woefully ignorant and naive. There is NOTHING worse to a child/teen than being 'different' and it standing out a mile!

[DrCoconut]

I went to a Catholic school. It was made clear that although they accepted non Catholics for any places that were left after Catholic applicants had been allocated them, no other religions would be practiced or allowed for. The uniform was to be the same for everyone, same meals on offer or take a pack up etc. And all pupils would be expected to take part in mass, prayers and other Catholic activities (as someone else said you can opt out of communion if you wish to, this was accepted as long as you were quiet and respectful). Basically if you take a place at our school you fit in with our community and ethos. It may be different now since the equality act, I'm not sure.

[CrapBag]

You want to send them to the best school possible. Don't worry about what religion it is or what strangers think, do what you think it best for your children. That's what I did and I don't give a fig what anyone else thinks about my decision.

[Theodorous]

Of course you want the best for your children, who doesn't? As long as you don't mind them being involved with the other students and support the ethos of the school you are just being a good parent

[Slatecross]

You're right, OP. It's very different in Scotland from a funding point of view. My apologies.

[soontobeslendergirl]

I sometimes wonder if anyone bothers to read a thread before posting on it. It is quite clear to me that the OP is talking about Scotland where the situation is totally different and this has been explained. However posters still feel the need to drag out rules and laws that apply to England.

It is perfectly possible in Scotland to withdraw from all religous observance regardless of whether you send your child to a non demoninational school or a Catholic one. What you can't do is withdraw them from RE (religous education) which is compulsory and is meant to be about education of all types of religion. There may well be privately funded religious schools in Scotland but i personally have no knowledge of any.

My personal view is that Religious observance is something that should take place in the home/be led by parents etc and has no place in the publicly funded school system. RE should form part of Social subjects education.

However, we are where we are at the moment and in the OPs situation, I'd be checking out the school to see that I was okay with the general Ethos, checking what arrangements are made for children who have no religion or are of a different religion to opt out of formal worship, and if I could live with both of those, I would put in my application and see what happens.

[asmallandnoisymonkey]

My sister and I went to a Catholic school when we were younger. My father was Catholic and my mother was not. She refused to let us have anything to do with the religious side of the school. When there were masses or anything religious the school had to provide a teacher to mind us while the rest of the school went somewhere else.

The teacher resented it, we resented it, the rest of the school children noticed we were different and picked on us.

If you don't want your children to go to mass don't send them to a Catholic school. Or you could look at it as a way for them to find out about other religions and maybe (god forbid), make up their own mind about a religion they may or may not want to belong to.

[JohnCusacksWife]

Sorry but I think you're mistaken. There isn't a single Catholic school in the country which is 100% state funded

Slatecross, with all due respect you are absolutely wrong about that. We are in Scotland where there are many, many state funded RC schools. In the west of Scotland normally every town has both non-denom schools and RC schools - all state funded.

[Slatecross]

JohnCusacksWife Thu 23-Jan-14 21:40:10
For the avoidance of doubt this is a bog standard 100% state funded school and as we are in the catchment area we are entitled to attend with no requirement to be baptised, catholic or anything at all.

Sorry but I think you're mistaken. There isn't a single Catholic school in the country which is 100% state funded - they ALL are subsidised by the Church and that's how they can teach Catholicism in the way they do, and maintain a selection process based on religion.

^Many Catholic schools were established in the 19th Century to meet the needs of poor Catholic immigrants from Ireland and that mission remains strong today, with Catholic schools continuing to receive the disadvantaged from the new immigrant populations from across the world. Catholic dioceses today remain conscious of their responsibility to meet the needs of established local Catholic families, Catholic traveller children and Catholic immigrants from other parts of the world, including Eastern Europe and parts of Africa, Latin America and South East Asia. Catholic schools today also provide 30% of their places to children and young people who are not Catholic but whose parents want them to have a Catholic education.

In 1944 the educational landscape across England and Wales changed forever with the passing of the Education Act 1944 (also known as the ‘Butler Act’). This act promised ‘secondary education for all’ and increased the school leaving age to 15, meaning that all children from the post-war generation received a minimum of 10 years of education.

Under the Butler Act, Catholic schools became ‘voluntary aided’ schools. This meant that they became part of the state system of education, whilst retaining their distinctively Catholic ethos through various legal protections which continue to apply to Catholic schools to this day. The agreement between Church and State meant that the funding of Catholic schools was shared by the Catholic foundations of the schools (in most cases the Dioceses or religious orders) and by the government. The first Catholic sponsored academies opened in 2005 and in 2011 some voluntary aided Catholic schools began to convert to academies.

The Church is also involved in higher education in England through its involvement in a range of higher education institutions . This continues the long-established involvement of the Church in higher education in England, which dates back to at least the thirteenth century. Prior to the Reformation, the Church played a major role in the development of Oxford and Cambridge Universities.^

[Fancyashandy]

I really don't remember masses and prayers at my Catholic high school, that much anyway- maybe we were very unusual.

[sashh]

I'm leaning towards the RC school although they would obv not participate in any masses etc.

Er not sure that's going to work. It's not like a church mass you can just not go to there are also year masses and class masses, OK that might not be true of all schools but was at my school, my brother's school and the one where a Sikh friend of mine was working a couple of years ago.

Also at all 3 schools, although parents had a legal right to withdraw their child from worship the HT's specified that the place at the school depended on the child taking part

On top of mass, which might be once a week or only on certain occasions, there is daily prayer, usually morning, before lunch and before home time.

RE is very much RC based. Because of the National Curriculum pupils now have to learn about at least one other religion, but the contest of that is up to the school.

When I went to VI form I was joined by my non RC cousin, her experience led her to say she would never send her child to an RC school because she didn't want them to feel like a second class citizen.

[StanleyLambchop]

Stanley seriously- you ask why is living in the area a better criteria than faith? Why should faith be any criteria for preferential selection at a state school

Maybe in the OP's case she says it is a state school. But in many cases faith schools are not fully state funded. Why should the RC church put money into a school if they cannot prioritise those of their faith? If the church did not put the extra money in , and in a lot of cases, provide the land for the school site, then the school would not exist at all, leaving the LA with having to find places for all the children who would have gone there. The money from the state comes from the pupil premium, which all school children are entitled to, regardless of their religion. So in most, but not all cases, the church is effectively acting as a private provider, subbing the local authority. The money to do this ultimately comes from donations from parishioners, ie church attendees. They do it because they want children to be educated in the faith so that it can be continued. I understand that you do not like the Catholic church, that is your opinion which you are entitled to. Just as others are entitled to theirs.

BTW, in our area, all the good non-faith senior schools are in very affluent catchments- if you can't afford a half a million pound home in catchment you won't get it. I personally don't think that is any more of a fair way to allocate places than faith, no. The rich kids get the better schools The RC schools take catholic children , but from all areas and backgrounds. Arguably much less selective.

[droppedscones]

I would say; if you don't need a reference from a priest, you are not having to pretend to be catholic, and you have visited it and think it would suit your children for other reasons aswell as its results there should be no reason not to apply. Personally I'd be leaning towards making my own travel arrangements, but I am uncomfortable with anything except a very broad religious education. Have you visited them all?

[Nataleejah]

It is not unreasonable to choose the best available option for your children's education, however, you should accept the whole package -- there will be certain traditions, certain morals, certain beliefs taught and you shouldn't be moaning about that.

[Fancyashandy]

Catholic schools are supposed to be open to all to apply, though might favour Catholics who apply of course. If you are ok with the religious element - go for it if you feel it is the better option and a good school. It's a state school. I went to a catholic high school and don't really remember it being all that catholic or religious. Primary tends to be much more so due to first confession, communion etc (and little ones are more gullible).

[Caitlin17]

If they provide 25% then no more than 25% of places should be reserved. In any case OP has said the school she is 100% state funded.

[x2boys]

yes diocese provide at least 25%of funding fo school which is why they are allowed to priortise baptised catholics

[Caitlin17]

Stanley seriously- you ask why is living in the area a better criteria than faith? Why should faith be any criteria for preferential selection at a state school.