To wonder why people who appear to dislike religion enjoy Christian celebrations

[Cupcake1985]

I know that most people enjoy Christmas, Easter etc with no regard for the actual Christian basis and meaning of the celebration, but aibu to think that those people should then not get all offended by the religious aspects and sometimes be downright rude about it?? The nativity play, spreading the word of god through carol singing etc..... Dare I mention operation Christmas child?! If you enjoy Christmas then at least try to accept it is actually about the birth of Christ or at least respect that others will celebrate this fact and may try to share that with those around them with the best intentions.

Basically cheer up, be accepting, be kind.

[MadAsFish]

What I don't understand is, if you aren't a Pagan or a Christian then why would you want to celebrate them? Many (most?) members of other religions don't, they celebrate their own festivals.

Because aspects of it are fun? Because standing outside of all the traditions of your culture/s can be isolating? Because there's a tradition pretty much as old as humanity of some kind of festival at that time of year? Because it's important even when you're an atheist, to develop certain cyclical calndar events? (that one's a personal belief - I think there's a need for most if not all of us to have traditions of something).

[MadAsFish]

calendar.

[AnyBagsofOxfordFuckers]

I think I'm in love with MrsTaraPlumbing

The thing is about the Christmas story, is that it is exactly that - a story. Not even a very plausible or decent one at that. To believe in it, you have to accept that it's okay for a pre-pubescent girl to get married to an adult man (Mary was meant to be about 12), that someone can get pregnant by a fictional supernatural being, without any sexual contact, furthermore, that said pregnancy can result in a male child, seeing as female bodies contain 0% XY chromosomes, and therefore, if self-fertilisation was magically possible, the baby would always be female, then you have to believe the crap about the star. I mean, it's the stuff of serious psychosis or a terrifying lack of basic intelligence and understanding about life and nature. It's no more plausible than Lord of The Rings, for example. The Christian Church really dropped a clanger coming up with the Virgin Birth concept a few centuries ago (because it wasn't part of the original story), because we can now prove it is totally impossible. I know people say it's all allegory, or whatever, but grown adults genuinely believe these things happened!

It's being expected to believe stuff like that that really insults Atheists. Anyone is free to believe whatever they want, but don't ask others to.

Anyway, we shouldn't talk about things like sharing food with our loved ones, having a good time, showing our love, showing we are thinking of others, enjoying a knees-up and making our homes look special, etc., as Pagan or Christian or whatever - they are HUMAN things that every culture, from time immemorial, have enjoyed, do enjoy, and will enjoy.

[AnyBagsofOxfordFuckers]

beastofburden, charity is not a specifically Christian thing - but it is a thing that Christianity has appropriated. Plenty of non-Christian, and non-religious people have been charitable before, and since, the Bible was formulated.

[friday16]

I don't know any Christians at all (among 200+ Christians from all denominations and walks of life) who think women are second class citizens.

Well, until they want to become bishops. Or priests. Then they're second class.

Nor do I know any who hate gay people.

Well, you should listen to more bishops speaking, then.

"Same sex marriage, apart from being ungodly, is unscriptural, unnatural, unprofitable, unhealthy, un-cultural, un-African and un-Nigerian. It is a perversion, a deviation and an aberration that is capable of engendering moral and social holocaust in this country. It is also capable of existincting [sic] mankind and as such should never be allowed to take root in Nigeria. Outlawing it is to ensure the continued existence of this nation. The need for doing this is urgent, compelling, and imperative."

[edam]

beast didn't say it was exclusively Christian, she merely said Christmas is a reminder for her.

[Stravy]

Even the Pope has condemned Operation Christmas Child

(not the new one, I actually think it was JPII, but whichever one it was he was a Christian)

[BackOnlyBriefly]

soverylucky if they must take part in a play at xmas would you expect the children of atheists and muslims to be treated differently?

[manicinsomniac]

friday - I don't know any bishops, nor do I know any Christians from Nigeria. You said most Christians hold those views; views that at least half the Christians I know would be disgusted by (and that's a lot of Christians, I don't just know a handful).

I'm not saying some Christians don't think like this. But so do some atheists and adherents of other religions. I have non Christian relatives who wouldn't allow a gay person into their home and (so they claim) would throw out any child of theirs who came out as gay .

Bigoted views are held by people of all religions, and none. You were generalising unfairly, I was just pointing that out.

[AmberLeaf]

so OP you didnt hear what you wantex pn the other thread?

[AmberLeaf]

wanted on*

[Dawndonnaagain]

Cupcake
Just because you didn't like what was on the other thread doesn't mean you'll get a different opinion on this thread!

Mind you, I can think of many poor and starving souls who would be extremely happy and cheerful on the kind of money Franklin Graham is taking home each year. Around 500,000 dollars per annum from Samaritan's Purse alone. Add that to all his other works and he makes a pretty penny from peddling his anti women, anti muslim, homophobic agenda.

[HettiePetal]

Totally agree, AnyBags.

I struggle, I truly do, to understand how anybody can be a Christian in this day and age. It's so plainly a load of old baloney.

[Stravy]

friday16 You are confusing the hierarchy with the laity. I don't know how the CofE works but in the Catholic church the Bishops are appointed by Rome to lead the church but they do not in any way represent it. Priests, Bishops and even some Cardinals have spoken out in favour of marriage equality and LGBT rights, most lay Catholics are in favour of marriage equality (broadly in line with the gen pop) and most Catholic MPs voted for it. It is also perfectly possible to be a misogynous, homophobic bastard whilst not belonging to any faith. Thats not to say that there isn't miles to go but there has been a seismic shift within the last 20-30 years and the change is accelerating at a fantastic rate.

I do know Christians who hate gay people but it is not something 'most of them get behind' by a long shot. At the moment it feels easier to come out as LGBT in church than it does to come out as Catholic in my queer community.

[Greydog]

beast - you get 10 days off work? How does that happen? I've never (since leaving school) had that sort of time off work! Last year was the first year in all the time we've been married that DH got boxing day off! He's working this year alas

[Trills]

Some places of work shut down between Christmas and New Year.

I once worked in a place where people were contracted for 35 hours a week but actually worked 37.5, with the extra going towards getting those days off.

So this year it would go:
work 24th Dec
25th Bank Holiday
26th Bank holiday
27th - "free" day off
28th - Saturday
29th - Sunday
30th - "free" day off
31st - "free" day off
1st Jan - Bank holiday
2nd Jan - back at work

So that's 8 days off. If the weekends fell at a different time it could be 10 days.

[madhairday]

friday you'll also find that the majority (2/3) of Synod voted in favour of women bishops. The whole set up and voting system is another story, but you are misrepresenting both the CofE and Christians in general. Personally I would not belong to a faith that hated or marginalised any sector of society at all; I am aware that some representatives of this faith do, as some representatives of any societal group from time immemorial do. I do not stand with such people, but the person my faith is founded on is a far cry from such attitudes, thankfully.

I'm not fussed that Christmas is piggybacked on Yule. I think a midwinter festival does us all good and we all need a break and celebration and fun and family togetherness. I don't pretend to have a monopoly on such things being a Christian; simply because I believe all humanity are made to celebrate in such ways. I celebrate the birth of Jesus at Christmas because this is what has been traditional; I'd be happy to celebrate it in February or September, but I do rather enjoy doing it alongside all the...well, Christmassy stuff.

Plenty of the stuff we do has Christian roots - Santa based on a fourth century bishop who was helping the poor, tree decorating adopted by St Boniface from Germany, presents based upon the presents from the wise men etc etc. Even if not though, it's still a jolly good knees up, no? And we are made for celebration. It's fully in line with my Christian faith, and I don't have any problem with anyone of any faith or none celebrating it in whichever way they please.

Hettie you say you cannot understand how anyone can possibly have this faith. It's not reserved for those with spectacularly low intelligence or those who never question, you know. You can be Christian and maintain that position from an intellectually rigorous standpoint as well as an experiential one. Ultimately, though, the experiential is what gives it the edge, the reality that transforms lives and brings hope, and keeps on doing.

With OCC, I keep hearing different sides of the story, but I'm not sure I approve of shipping plastic tat possibly made by the same children who will receive it, and am certainly not in agreement with Mr Graham's rhetoric. There are some great schemes out there like Link Romania which seem to have more integrity. OCC does maintain it doesn't give leaflets unless culturally acceptable. Of course as a Christian I would say that the message could be just as life changing as receiving some presents, but then I'd be coming into the delightful Cunt territory mentioned above because I Agree With Evangelism. Oh Dear.

[RedToothBrush]

Operation Christmas Child. A charitable act by a fundamentalist christian group that not only advocates, but encourages commercialism in order to buy their way into the lives of potential new followers.

Hmmm....

Operation Christmas Child run by an organisation called the Samaritan's Purse.

Again... Hmmmm....

Now if you had bothered to READ that thread there is a link to a Guardian Story, which in the course of the article explains the parable of the good Samaritan.

A man is mugged in the Wadi Qelt between Jerusalem and Jericho. Whereas the religious pass by and do nothing, it is the Samaritan who offers care. Those listening to the story would have despised Samaritans. The words "good" and "Samaritan" just didn't go together. Indeed, theirs would have been the General Boykin reaction: that Samaritans worshipped the idol of a false god. Therefore, in casting the Samaritan as the only passer-by with compassion, Jesus is making an all-out assault on the prejudices of his listeners.

If the story was just about helping the needy, whoever they are, it would have been sufficient to cast the Samaritan as the victim and a Jewish layperson as the person who helped. Crucially, however, the hated Samaritan is held up as the moral exemplar. Conclusion: we must overcome religious bigotry.

The story of the good Samaritan, in the hands of Franklin Graham, is conscripted as propaganda for the superiority of Christian compassion to the brutal indifference of other religions - almost the opposite of the purpose of the story.

So to me this means, you can have your version of Christmas and it can mean something in particular to you, but actually you don't have full claim to it, even if it has the word Christ in the title. If you do, you are displaying religious bigotry and being intolerant of the beliefs of others.

And when there are people like Graham using the story in its twisted form, is it any wonder that many people notice and see through the hypocrisy and cynical manipulation of the good and well meant intentions of other and use it for their own agendas that are completely at odds with the teachings that Jesus is supposed to have given.

This is why people can be scathing of Christianity, sometimes very unfairly, because they are in the mistaken belief that these twisted views and intolerance is shared by everyone who follows the faith.

And this is why Christians should challenge other Christians who display views like this. To show that it is a religion that doesn't look down its nose at others who don't believe the same as them.

Christmas is not just a religious festival in the uk now. It is so ingrained into our way of life it is a cultural festival with goes far beyond the religious story in its ideals of morality. It is a time for sharing and giving and thinking of others and that holds universal appeal.

Christmas itself is something that can be shared.

[HettiePetal]

You can be Christian and maintain that position from an intellectually rigorous standpoint

I've never, ever seen or heard anyone achieve this. Not once. Sorry.

[manicinsomniac]

Great post madhairday

And yes, that's one thing that makes me very unsure of what I think about OCC. While I think evangelism has to be done with cultural, situational and individual sensitivity I cannot disagree with it being done at all. I can totally understand why it puts people's backs up and comes across as arrogant. But if an individual truly believes the Christian message of grace then how can they not want to at least try to share it with others? If the person is very vulnerable then, in the eyes of most atheists, it would be even more unacceptable to evangelise. But in the eyes of many Christians, coming to know Jesus will help them far more than any material gift. I can absolutely understand why they put the two together, though I don't really know if I think it's ok or not. I wish I had a stronger faith and a stronger desire to evangelise.

[exexpat]

manicinsomniac - the kind of Christianity you want to spread might be OK (I don't know your precise views, but your posts sound like a thoughtful, reasonable person), but some of the ideas that American fundamentalist missionaries are spreading in places like Uganda are horrific.

God loves Uganda

Which is why I think anyone supporting evangelism in the developing world needs to be very, very sure of exactly what is being done in their name.

[HettiePetal]

But in the eyes of many Christians, coming to know Jesus will help them far more than any material gift

See, I take issue with this. A lot.

The value of a material gift (if we're talking toys etc) is debatable, I agree. But if anyone is heading out to Africa or wherever on the basis that "coming to know Jesus will help them" then I'd rather they didn't go at all.

The people of the third world need many, many things - mosquito nets, clean water, inoculations, food & the means of producing it and so on. IF, in the process of helping provide those things, someone talks about their personal beliefs, fair enough.

But to head out there because "knowing Jesus will help them" is entirely the wrong motivation in my view. Because, in case you haven't noticed, Jesus doesn't appear to do a lot when it comes to alleviating hunger & preventing starvation.

[hermioneweasley]

SunshineMMum, let me be very clear, I did not describe all
Christians as cunts. Please read my definition, and yes I would apply this to people of any faith (or none) who are so in denial about the history and origins of their religion, and people who support organisations which use the good will of others to spread messages of hate.