To wonder why people who appear to dislike religion enjoy Christian celebrations

[Cupcake1985]

I know that most people enjoy Christmas, Easter etc with no regard for the actual Christian basis and meaning of the celebration, but aibu to think that those people should then not get all offended by the religious aspects and sometimes be downright rude about it?? The nativity play, spreading the word of god through carol singing etc..... Dare I mention operation Christmas child?! If you enjoy Christmas then at least try to accept it is actually about the birth of Christ or at least respect that others will celebrate this fact and may try to share that with those around them with the best intentions.

Basically cheer up, be accepting, be kind.

[Beastofburden]

I don't care about the word either- as I say, if we were born further north we'd all be calling it Jul anyway. And if we were born further south we'd be calling it Birthday (variants of Natale).

Nt to depress you, but not only did the historical man Christ not speak English- English didn't exist for him to speak. We in blighty spoke Norse, old English and Celtic then, I think. Recognisable English was a good 1,000 years away, after the Norman conquest.

I have a lovely time at Christmas and I even do a fair bit of singing in carol services and midnight mass where they need to get a choir together. It's fun. I don't believe a single word of it- and my point is, most of it isn't Christian anyway, so those who do are not being Christian either.

[Beastofburden]

all boxed I can respect your parents as they are showing sincere faith and good scholarship, though its a shame they didn't feel able to join in the fun... But they are perfectly right.

[BoundandRebound]

Christmas is an invention to counteract the pagan festivals of midwinter that are found in most cultures

I love a good feast, festival of light, celebration of the rebirth that spring brings in the heart of midwinter and will continue to celebrate it allowing for those of the Christian faith to name it and proclaim it theirs

I hate evangelism - it is nasty and insidious particularly when wrapped up in charity and should be banned as immoral

[AllBoxedUp]

They kind of did but it was a bit hush, hush so the rest of the family didn't know. It was just a day of lots of food and presents which I think are the pared down elements of most people's Christmases. They would threaten each year to make us wait until New Year for our presents like our cousins but I think they enjoyed it as well even though they thought it was a bit wrong.

[HettiePetal]

I love the fact that Cupcake hasn't come back. I think she was expecting a lot of people to agree with her self-righteous indignation.

I bet something appears on the Religion boards before long "Why are atheists so intolerant?" or some such twaddle.

[Beastofburden]

They would probably not like the idea, but I expect we celebrate Christmas in much the same way, ie definitely not as a Christian festival! But they sound good and sincere people.

On evangelism, I find it offensive 365 days a year, not only at Christmas.

[Quoteunquote]

For tens of thousands of years humans have celebrated the solstices and equinoxes,

wwp.greenwichmeantime.co.uk/longest-day/equinox-solstice-2010-2019.htm

Anyone creating a new religion, has always had to tie in their celebration dates, as people don't give up auspicious occasion, they will change them, but not ignore them.

and the winter solstice has always been marked with the celebrating the coming of a new year, bring light to the darkest day.

[Meerkatwhiskers]

Wasn't Jesus actually born in February?

I am atheist but was bought up catholic. I celebrate christmas with a small c lol. But really the old traditional pagan festival of the celebratory meal with family and giving gifts. It's all about family for me. No religion invited.

[Geckos48]

If it makes you feel any better I would enjoy Christmas just a much without the Roman story :)

[MurderOfGoths]

Hettie I love your work on this thread

[Beastofburden]

A a musician, I am used to this. Almost everything you sing in a concert will have religious words. That's just how music used to be written. I have spent so long taking no notice of the words I sing that I had forgotten this

[MurderOfGoths]

Anyway, I was always brought up being told that Christmas was about the "Christian values of sharing and goodwill to all"? Or is that only to other Christians?

What's wrong with a whole load of people simultaneously enjoying a day of goodwill and celebration, even if their beliefs are different?

[Beastofburden]

murder, that I do agree with. Christmas forces me to remember to give to charity, and in my childhood I had to share a room with my great aunt Florrie (there is no greater sacrifice, she had a moustache and she snored) as my (atheist) mother would pack the house with deservedly neglected relations and neighbours.

[HettiePetal]

Thanks, Murder.

[ninah]

and let's face it, even Christians don't agree among themselves re beliefs

[manicinsomniac]

I understand that Christmas and Easter have pagan origins and were adopted by Christians.

What I don't understand is, if you aren't a Pagan or a Christian then why would you want to celebrate them? Many (most?) members of other religions don't, they celebrate their own festivals.

If I didn't believe that I was celebrating the birth of Christ (not on the right day or even in the right month but just symbolic) or whatever it was that the original pagans were celebrating on that date then I would heave a huge sigh of relief and stay the hell away from anything remotely Christmas related! .

As I do believe, then I find the decorated churches, carols, lights and prayers very meaningful. A Christmas carol service is one of the highlights of the year for me. The more family based stuff helps to add a sense of occasion but isn't really the point. And the commercial stress and overeating really isn't anything to enjoy!

There was a radio advert a couple of years ago which said (in an appopriately annoying drum roll style voice) "and we all know what the real meaning of Christmas is .... Shopping!" I found that incredibly sad. I don't actually think it's true for anyone but that retailers would even try to make it so tries to take everything away from a day that means something to Christians and, presumably (I've never met one so wouldn't want to speak for them!), Pagans.

[MurderOfGoths]

manic The Pagan meaning behind Yule/Xmas/midwinter is pretty much just to break up the winter and make it less unbearably dark and grim. Can see why that would appeal to non-Pagans as well!

[friday16]

even Christians don't agree among themselves re beliefs

Hating gays and regarding women as second-class citizens is, however, something most of them can get behind. The Church of England may not believe in much, but excluding homosexuals and women from senior roles is something they can always find time to vote in favour of.

[BackOnlyBriefly]

manicinsomniac I think the origin would have been as Murder describes it.

I'm no farmer, but I imagine in the old days there'd be nothing more you could do in the fields at this time of year. The days would be short and cold and you might have food that wasn't going to last that was better eaten now.

In any case most of us are not celebrating either pagan or xmas versions really. The decorations are just to make it look cheerful and it's not like you can buy non-pagan trees or fairy lights. It's just a time to get together with family at a time when most (not all) people get time off from work.

[TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy]

I don''t celebrate it but the only other people I know who don't are my friends who are Hasidic Jews and my partner's grandmother who is a Jehovah's Witness. It's pretty all consuming in the UK and it's quite awkward trying to explain if you don't even if you are of another faith group.

The Celtic/Germanic/Roman pagan roots (though the Romans co-opted so many other groups) and traditions certainly help break up a bleak winter, though obviously many other pagans in other regions have nothing of the sort - not everywhere has bleak winters - but do have other types of festivals (As Metis/Mestizo, we just had Dias de los muertos which is rooted in Aztec paganism, spread throughout the region and was co-opted and reduced by Christian colonizers, but has no real equivalent in Celtic paganism or neopaganism).

[HettiePetal]

I "enjoy" Christmas rather than actively "celebrate" it, Manic.

It is ridiculously commercial & it's a real worry that people get themselves into debt buying presents. But it can also be a lot of fun & there is a sense of community that bubbles up around it.

And, as someone else said upthread, if Christmas didn't already exist, we'd probably invent something similar to liven up a boring, cold time of the year.

[manicinsomniac]

friday16 - totally untrue! I don't know any Christians at all (among 200+ Christians from all denominations and walks of life) who think women are second class citizens. Nor do I know any who hate gay people. Admittedly, some (maybe 10-15%) believe that the man has ultimate responsibility for his family and more (40-50%?) believe that it is wrong to practise homosexuality but a) those things are not the same as what you suggested and b) huge numbers of Christians, including myself, don't believe either of them anyway.

[manicinsomniac]

murder - oh ok, thanks for that, that's really helpful. I thought it was a celebration linked to a God or Goddess. It does make more sense as a festival for all now.

[Beastofburden]

manic if you are not religious then you don't have a religious reason for celebrating it, so the pagan/Christian option is too simplistic.

I celebrate having ten days off work, getting the family together, remembering to give to charity, traditional food which brings back memories of when the children were young and when I was young, the fun of finding a nice present for someone, and being given traditional things that I always like.

Giving to charity is the only Christian element in this.