to think this class system only exists on MN?

[GildedWingsOfGrace]

All the time I hear "middle class" bashing on here.

Or "working class" guilt. Only on MN.

I wouldn't have a clue what class I am or what class my friends are, or the people I work with are.

It doesn't even occur to me, and I never hear it mentioned in day to day life

or if you want a basic marxist take on it most of us are proletariat, or lumpen proletariat

of course marxism is a bit old hat these days:o

It makes me laugh when posters on here say they're "too poor to be MC" Class is not entirely about money.

I grew up very WC, through education and moving away I've become somewhat MC. I find it hard to come up with tangible examples but life feels easier as an MC (even if I'm faking it!)

but apparently class is born not made so I dont see how people can jump classes ? see how confused i am about this

As an American (so from a society which has a class system too) I think class doesn't affect every day life if you live in a varied class society. If you live in a predominantly working/middle/upper class area, then it will be more noticeable if you aren't- obviously. Where I live now, I stick out like a sore thumb (and not because I'm American btw!) but where I used to live, I blended in. A few years ago, I'd have said class didn't affect me probably!

MN is confusing. People seem obsessed with being wc (or rather- 'working class guilt' is overused. Being mc isn't bad!) and what I think of mc is vastly different to a number of MNers- my idea of upperclass is their idea of mc etc;

If class is down to money please explain the Rooneys.

what is working class guilt ? is it if you made a nice life and then you say well I grew up in a shoebox kinda thing just to balance it out,

Class becomes a problem when the supposedly MC look down on the WC.

You only have to read the baby names threads on here to know that it's a real problem.

Surely everyone knows class isn't just about money, or birth or education...in other words it's not one dimensional

And the USA may not have a 'class system'but it's far from egalitarian

Dh and I are both from a very working class background but don't live a traditional working class lifestyle now. Dh has a real bee in his bonnet about class, he has a real problem with anyone who he considers to be"posh" which I think stems from some sort of self esteem thing... really fucking annoying as I was boarding school educated (dad was in the army) and went to university which is everything he seems to dislike. We've had many a row about it, apparently none of it applies to me as the MOD paid for my education, but I still think wtaf when he starts going on.

The huge irony here is that despite the fact he left school at 16 with crap exam results and was taken on as a yts trainee, he has an extremely successful career and has educated himself via day release from work. It's his salary which pays for our the majority of our lifestyle as I gave up full time work and out my career on hold a couple of years ago.

He has many redeeming features but this class obsession is most definitely not one of them.

My DH never feels guilty but he does feel slightly awkward in social situations with the noticeably "Old Etonian" brigade. I don't but I thought DC was a prat when I met him at a dinner party when he was still working at Conservative Central Office as a policy twonk. Guess he was 25 and I was about 28.

AFAIAC a prat is a prat regardless of class or income; just as a nasty so and so is a nasty so and so. Just thought of a famous one of those too who was the rudest person I've ever spoken to - Maxwell. Prats and gits come from all walks of life and don't make my address book regardless of who they are.

I don't think you can move class tbh.

You are what you are.

Why would you want to be seen as MC?

Do you assume it's better than being WC?

Tiger it sounds like he's worked very hard to get where he is, maybe he resents people who seem to have success handed to them on a plate (I think that would be quite understandable btw)

The only people I meet who are obsessed with class tend to be hyacinth bouquet type characters or inverse snobs.

I have no idea what class I am dp and I aren't university educated and neither are our parents however dp earns more than his friends who do have degrees and I was a manager before becoming a sahm. We live on a council estate but we own our house so I have no idea where we are.

If you marry someone from a higher class do you still become that class?

Of course you can move class, it's not a caste system.

However its difficult to eradicate the effects of social background, I think partly its to do with which group you identify with, we tend to absorbed elements of whichever culture we want to be part of

The only thing I really comment on about class is what a difference it is moving to the SE from the north. Back home I would say people are predominately working class and down here mostly mc or "uc" I find the divide quite shocking

"If you marry someone from a higher class do you still become that class?

I don't think so. Somebody was saying today on another thread That Kate Middleton isn't UC but their child is.

'You can take the girl out of the trailer park, but you can't take the trailer park out of the girl'
:o

I don't think you notice in everyday life, but it does become quite noticeable if you are entirely surrounded by those of a different class.

I think one is very blessed to be able to ignore class.

Class is part the system, it is built into the infrastructure all around us. It effects a person's life chances, their access to education and health care, how their represented, how likely they are to be incarcerated for the same crimes, it fits in with other parts of the system like sex, gender, race, health, and so on and so forth.

Social mobility currently being at it's lowest in decades, it affects pretty much all of a person's life chances down to their lifespan - people literally die because of the class they are perceived to be in and are far more likely to be living in pain (as doctors are more likely to fob off a person if they are perceived to be lower class - because of the perceptions fed from every side about scroungers and drug addicts. I have a gentleman who has had a condition that includes chronic pain for over a decade whose new doctor wanted to 're-adjust' his pain meds - and we found weeks after when he was in agony that he had been given sugar pills).

Look at the media, people in lower classes are not represented as human as people of middle class, not as moral, not as deserving of comfort and to be deserving of the bad things that happen to them. That's part of the class system. It's the concept that perceived wealth is related to a human's value and morality. Like sexism where just being perceived as female will mean I experience things very differently to men even when they can't see the sexism or the extent of the difference.

TigerFeet, my DH is exactly the same! DS goes to private school and you should see DH when he's dragged along to parent's evenings etc. He feels he doesn't fit in and that everyone is looking down at him. Ignoring the fact that no one really cares what he does for a living, he is in fact a successful professional and should feel at ease. It's absolutely nuts! I keep telling him that they are all just normal friendly people but he seems to think it's this completely different world where he doesn't belong. Drives me batty!

Spork Well said

It's important to know that class affects people. You can't even begin to tackle social mobility issues etc until you understand the basics of class and how it influences people

Do I obsess about class? No. I know where I fit in and where my children fit in. I don't talk about class a lot, certainly not with my friends irl.

I do think that in recent decades the way we decide who is in a certain class has changed a bit. I was born in 1965. When I was a kid in the 70's, class was much more about family background than it is now (your background still plays a part now but other factors have increased weight when we decide what class we and others are in). There was still a more Victorian way of looking at it than there is now

And to some extent, we still have a Victorian viewpoint. Mostly when it comes to the 'upper class'. Being Upper Class, in most people's minds, is heavily dependent on your family background. Upper Class usually implies inherited wealth, land ownership and titles. A Duke is upper class. Even if he is having to sell off half of his possessions because he's massively in debt.

Society has changed in the last few decades, and with it our views on class have changed a bit, and suddenly we are thinking about education, income, and habits more and more

Either way, if you think class doesn't affect you, then you probably largely mix with people in the same class as you. In my mind, not noticing class is a bit like not noticing white privelage, the way the security man at the shop is only following the black male teenager around etc etc. "oh but it doesn't affect me". Well it does. But not as obviously as it affects that teenager. It does affect you, but you arent conscious of what you have (or don't have).

very true TheSporkforeatingkyriarchy

i am not sure if it is the true mc or those that are not but desperately want to be seen as mc that feel it is so important for other people to know that they are

how many threads have we seen on here calling others chavy for name choice, holiday choice, because their children have their ears pierced, what bag they carry, pram pushed and so on its never ending the sneering on here. Katie Hopkins is at least open with her sneering on here it can be hidden behind a screen

YABU... the class system is alive & well but it's been updated and not as clear-cut or restricted as maybe it was in the past. Snobbery is rife in the UK and runs far deeper than you think. A particular name, job title, car you drive, accent you speak with, taste in soft-furnishings, dog on the end of the lead, presence or absence of tattoos .... and somebody somewhere will be making a snap judgement on what type of person that makes you. Inverse snobbery such as 'posh' politicians can't possibly know how 'ordinary' people live... that kind of crap is everywhere.

I think usual has a point - I don't really think you can move class, although you might inch up/down towards a higher or lower class than the one you were born into, depending on how your life pans out. You may well be enthusiastically accepted into a social group that is totally different to one your parents inhabited when you were growing up, but they will alway know deep down that you have not always been one of them, and this works both up and down the class ladder. Accent and dialect (or lack of) is almost always the main indicator that you may not have always been what you appear to be now.

But you children will not necessarily be the same class as you. They will, in all likelihood, be 100% absorbed into the class in which most of their peers inhabit, and end up with the same accents and the same expectations/values.