to wonder why women need special classes...

[TheLostWinchesterWife]

...in bricklaying, plumbing, woodwork and decorating effects! Just browsing through the local college prospectus and in starter courses there they are. Specialist decorating effects, intro to woodworking skills, basic plumbing and intro to bricklaying then after listing them all they are repeated but specified For Women.
Do they have lighter bricks for our dainty little hands? Do we use hearts and flowers and fluffy bunnies for decorating effects while the men use ox bollocks as rollers ?
It smacks of let's let the little ladies think they can do these man things. Arent they funny little creatures? fnaar fnaar fnaar snort!
Maybe its less intimidating or they have them for that reason but it seems so patronising.
Rant over.

[Bluegrass]

They help fuel the idea that women are the weaker, gentler sex that need protecting from nasty men (let's face it, the men doing these courses are just men who want to learn a new skill too, just ordinary men, sons and husbands, not gang members or hardened criminals who need to be segregated from civilised society).

Put this alongside the dislike of anything billed as "men only" and I don't this it is a particularly helpful message.

[SigmundFraude]

Well, they seem to be wasting their time with 'women are delicate flowers who must learn to be brickies with other women' classes, because I've never yet seen a female brickie. Or joiner, or electrician, or mechanic for that matter, though I'm sure one or two exist. Maybe the government should push for 30% quotas.

[FreyaSnow]

I don't understand how any of this is an issue at all. It sounds like it is a course to learn basic skills, not to give people the appropriate qualifications for entrance to an industry.

There are courses for men, courses or women, courses for young people, courses only for those over 18, courses just for NEETs, courses for people who have limited spoken English, courses for people who are retired and courses for people who have young children. The content of these courses can be about a wide variety of topics, not about the people taking them.

Who is it actually hurting? Male only cooking or weight loss classes are not having a negative impact on my life, and I doubt women only DIY classes are having a negative impact on men.

[Saffyz]

Saffyz but that assumes that the problem is the course itself, which often it isn't, but things that have happened previously in the woman's life.

In that case why not make an effort to assure women that similar things (sexism, harrassment etc.) won't be tolerated on the mixed course? It should be any sexist men who are immediately removed from the course, not women who've done nothing wrong and have every right to feel comfortable on any course that interests them.

[Takver]

SigmundFraude - if you want to find a tradeswoman, look at WAMT. Though I think you have to pay to be on their 'find a tradeswoman' list and as tradeswomen tend to be much in demand I don't think many bother. There aren't lots, but they do exist!

I did a womens' motor mechanics course many years ago in my late teens - I think I would have been too shy to go on a course full of blokes at that point, so I was very glad it existed. It was a basic course, not intended for anyone planning to work in the field.

[ChippingInNeedsSleepAndCoffee]

saffyz - if a woman has been abused and repeatedly told she can't do anything right, is hopeless, is useless and much worse by her father and her (hopefully ex) boyfriends & partners she may lack the confidence to try to gain a new skill in a very male environment, irrespective of how those men may or may not act. This would provide them with an environment they feel safe in & they could learn a new skill, gain some confidence & generally start to regain some self belief. Why is that such a terrible thing?

[exoticfruits]

They are all leisure classes. I wouldn't expect problems in a leisure class- I would still prefer female only for DIY or cars.

[SoupDragon]

What exactly is the problem with this?
If you want to be in a mixed class, book a mixed class.
If you would prefer to learn with women only, book a women only class.
The only people who are stuffed are men who want a men only class.

[pigsDOfly]

I did a women's DIY course several years ago and quite a number of the women were recently divorced and wanted to learn how these skills so they wouldn't have to pay someone else to do them. Several of the woman were doing other building type courses, one woman was halfway through a carpentry course.

It wasn't aimed at 'little women'. We learned valuable skills: painting, tiling, plastering, electrical wiring etc. I've saved a fortune utilising what I learned. It was just good to do it with other women.

[EBearhug]

I'd want to do a mixed class, mostly so I could look smug if I did it better than everyone else (or at least better than the men.)

But then I work in a very male-dominated area, and the majority of techy courses I've been on for work, I've been the only woman, so I'm used to it - and I also grew up doing practical stuff at home, so I know I can do it, I just need training in specific techniques that I'm unfamiliar with.

I am aware of stereotype threat, and as much as I wish there weren't single sex courses and exercise sessions and so on, I do understand the need for it - without it, some women just wouldn't do it at all.

[exoticfruits]

People always manage to see problems where there are not any. Some women want women only classes- they are provided. Simple.

[unlucky83]

I'm guessing this is a community college thing...kind of thing that people use to meet new people/friends as well ...
You would assume the majority of people doing a brick laying course would be men - and therefore not a good class to try and make female friends...and maybe (wrongly) it might be assumed that a women doing that course was trying to find a man - which might put some women off!
Lots of women would have a problem with going somewhere they thought they would be the only female etc - no-one likes to feel the odd one out...
(I used to work and flat share with all men - wouldn't worry me)
I know I'm probably wrong - but long ago came to the conclusion that if a man rushes to lift something heavy etc for me because I am a poor weak woman why shouldn't I just let him? More fool him. Why do I feel the need to prove a point? Do I really want to put my back out when I can watch someone else do theirs instead?
Funniest eg of this recently - I was on the scrounge for some pallets to make a wood store, a couple of workmen building a garage with a couple of pallets hanging around - stopped and asked them if I could have them - neither of them spoke much English (eastern Europeans I think) - obviously thought I was mad - but then proceeded to carefully load them into my car for me - shaking their heads when I tried to pick one up! Sorry - but why would I want to get splinters and covered in mud and plaster dust if someone else was happy to do it for me!

[EBearhug]

Yes - that was a point made on the (mixed, but only two blokes out of the 9 or 10 of us,) car maint course I did when I first got my car. If someone else offers to do the hard, dirty work, let them - but by doing the course, you have a choice and are less likely to have the wool pulled over your eyes through ignorance.

The thing that made me laugh was the one time I had to change a tyre, I physically could not get the wheel nuts undone. But the one-armed man from across the road and my colleague in a wheelchair managed it between them. So much for me being the one without a physical disability! (I knew what to do, I just didn't have the strength by myself.)

[unlucky83]

Loosing wheel nuts - you need a tube to go over your wheel brace/socket - makes it longer so gives more leverage and/or use your foot to kick it downwards - works everytime - but not needed if there is someone who will do it for you!...
Tyre fitting garages with their machines for the nuts used to be good at over tightening them - my dear uncle (died last year ) used to check them with a torque wrench and copper grease them for me when I was visiting so I would always be able to change a tyre if I needed to - even after I was a member of the AA...

[Katiepoes]

I've done DIY classes with both mixed and women only. Much preferred the women only - the mixed ones the women spent a lot of time explaining that no we didn't need help lifting, yes we did have partners, no we were not gay... - not one if those men thought they were being arses.

Too tiring, I wanted to learn skills to save me some cash, if I do another I will actually seek out a women only, I now pick my battles. I work in a male dominated IT area btw.

Having said that I only want women only - not pink or glittery or to be referred to as a girl.

[theodorakisses]

I can't bear anything that's women only. Are the other ones men only?

[mrsjay]

because women may fin d a mixed class intimidating and if they want to learn man skills then perhaps they want to do it without men sayiung oiy love is that too heavy for ya or some such rubbish yab a little u to think this is sexist , I used to work in a scheme where school leavers were taught decorating woodwork some plumbing and the girls were few and far between and 16 to 18 yr old lads can be a pita those girls got a hard time

[mrsjay]

oh on the flip side I have seen cooking courses for men only run at a community centre near me apparently it was a lot of older men who were divorced and their wives did the cooking

[theodorakisses]

There is nothing I dread more than being in a room full of women and men are banned. The conversation generally descends into competitive parenting tedium.

[mrsjay]

but you would be building a wall theo fwiw I never talk about my children if im in a group of people well i may mention them but men talk about their kids too, different strokes for different folks and all that I think single sex classes or courses are a good idea and they have their place,

[CuChullain]

I did a car mechanics course with Mrs CuChullain last year, although the college offered a womens only course she elected to join the non segregated class. Yes, she was the only women and about half the size of everyone else she held her own and the other blokes were nothing but helpful and friendly. The only bit she struggled a tiny bit with was lifting the heavy tyres but she managed to work out her own technique that enabled her to do this without assistance. She did ask what was included in the ladies only course and apparently it was a watered down version of what the guys did which struck me as odd.

[sashh]

But if they're intimidated on a course, how are they to manage on a building site?

They are not going to work on a building site, they are going to decorate their own homes.

Thank about a 50+ widow whose husband used to do the decorating, is she really going o be at home in a room with teenage boys? The classes that are not for women will be mainly filled with young men.

The widow might love the idea, but some won't.

[cory]

I used to attend an all women Bible study class. It was great: serious thought, challenging discussions, great openness.

And then we agreed to merge with the men's group, mainly consisting of spouses. The whole atmosphere changed instantly: instead of thinking seriously about the issues most of the women in the class spent the meetings listening attentively to the men pontificating, cocking their heads in admiration, making sure that they knew just how wonderful and important their viewpoints were. Very little thinking went on until we changed back: the men didn't have to do any under the circumstances and the women clearly felt for them to do it would be presumptious.

[Lovecat]

What Cory said - the presence of men definitely changes a group dynamic and, sadly, not usually for the better.

Otoh, DH would like to attend a motor maintenance class that was either one on one or otherwise full of women, as then he could admit that he doesn't even know how to open a car bonnet and not feel ashamed of this apparent gap in his 'manliness' (don't get me started on that one!)

[Lovecat]

Although if it were a women-only-with-dispensation-for-DH class, he no doubt would still be expected to inherently 'know' stuff about cars by some of the class.

A friend once asked him to look at her washing machine as it was leaking. He had no idea and said so. I took a look and pointed out the rubber door seal had perished and she needed to get a new one. She looked at DH and asked 'is that right?' He told her he had no idea but then when I told her that it was a simple matter to replace it and could show her how, she said 'oh, yes, I'd be much happier if DH could do it for me'..... I stopped myself from saying that possession of a willy does not confer magical powers of DIY, but only just...