to take my DS out of pre school because they say he is needs 'extra support'.

[Elvisina]

My 3 yr old DS has always been on the lively side! His idea of heaven is being allowed to just run through a park, woods or along a beach, preferably with some older children. He very rarely shows an interest in any kind of ?mark making? (despite our best efforts ? we have enough arts and crafts stuff in this house to start up our own nursery). He had been quite a few months behind with his speech but his language has recently taken off in a big way! A recent visit to a speech therapist reassured me he is/will be fine.
Anyway, this April he started at a local pre school for 2 and a half days a week. It?s a new pre school that is attached to a primary school which only opened 2 years ago. They?ve just received a very good Ofsted and the resources are great. I was so delighted to get him in there and he absolutely loves it, running into the playground each morning with a massive smile on his face. However, over the last few weeks, I?ve been feeling increasingly uneasy about how they think he?s doing. Whenever I made a friendly enquiry to his teacher I?ve had rather crisp, negative responses such as ?He doesn?t like joining in activities, especially if they?re led by an adult. He?s just not really ready? and ?I?m like a broken record having to tell him all the time to put his coat on?. Nothing positive (and I know I?m biased but he is damn cute!). Last week I decided to phone up for a chat about how he?s doing, basically expecting some reassurance along the lines of, ?he?s happy and friendly and we?re working on getting him to use his ?listening ears?? etc however it turned into a serious talk about how they have been preparing documentation to get him ?extra support? because he wants to play outside all the time and doesn?t want to join in the teacher led activities. Language such as ?he needs a different learning path? was used. Apparently he stood out from the other children who were all happy to listen to teacher led activities. I was devastated and I know it?s ridiculous but I cried! It really hurt that they felt he was so different from the others. I mentioned that I had noticed there were loads more girls than boys and she said she hadn?t noticed this as a particular issue but in his class picture on their website there are 9 girls and 3 boys!

My DH thinks we should just accept the extra help and not worry about it but I now feel as though perhaps this isn?t the place for my DS. I don?t even feel as though they like him very much. I took him out of a lovely, friendly nursery where they seemed to really ?get? him and like him to go to this new pre school. I?m now considering sending him back there. Thing is, he loves it and I could be doing him a disservice by not letting him have this ?extra support?. I honestly hadn?t realised that he would be required to take part in so many teacher led activities. I thought he got to play all day! What?s wrong with him wanting to play outside for 2 hours pretending to be a pirate? (I?m a teacher myself ? secondary ? so should have known better really). I keep looking at my wonderful boy who I honestly, honestly, honestly don?t think there is anything wrong with and feeling upset that they?ve made me feel as though he is somehow ?failing?/different. I?m going in next week to observe him and discuss his ?learning path? but actually I just feel like I want to remove him. Would that be ridiculously unreasonable of me? Am I just being too sensitive?

[ThreeMusketeers]

The school is obviously bent on keeping their outstanding score by Ofsted.

That includes labelling any child who doesn't follow school's curriculum ie, sitting still for relatively long time, doing crafts etc when told to do so etc etc, as potentially SN.

Children develop differently, some are ready to sit and listen to a story at early age, some are more interested in chasing butterflies.

Ours were able to sit still since about 2 years old as we read for hours every day. But - they really liked the stories, which, incidentally were meant for 6-7 year olds.

I always explained the new/difficult words in stories, made DC give examples where else these words could be used, made them repeat the words and only then proceeded with the story. We always discussed the plot so they understood exactly what was going on and were able to venture guesses as to how the story could be continued.

When they started pre-school at age 3.5, they were bored with simple stories and called them baby-stories. Consequently, we were told that they are unable to sit still etc. They were bored and not interested.

[GobbySadcase]

He has no SN?

How are you (collective) qualified to say that? How do you know?

(Not saying he does but nobody here can say yes or no)

This preschool has staff who have a lot of experience. They don't just offer additional support for the hell of it.

Early intervention can work wonders. Even if its identified later down the track that he doesn't have SN then the extra support won't actually harm him.

To not let him have support that has been identified that he is in need of would be detrimental in the long term. You shouldn't withhold support for fear of 'labels'. Labels also are not a cad thing, they don't make your child grow another head, they are the same child with an identified need that requires support. That isn't a bad thing.

I didn't know DS1 was any different until a very experienced pre school worker referred us. He has Aspergers and due to appropriate intervention is now managing very well at a mainstream school (apart from Dyscalculia). Who knows if he'd have coped without the extra support early on.

[halcyondays]

they wouldn't suggest extra support if they didn't think he needed it and they would have to demonstrate exactly why he needed to have it. education boards don't just hand out extra TAs to pupils unless its clearly necessary, because they don't have unlimited funding.

[crashdoll]

OP, at your son's age, he does not need to be attending such a structured nursery, he has plenty of time to mature before school starts. Some kids thrive on structure at a young age but some don't and it doesn't necessarily mean that it is a problem. Early years settings should be mostly child-led and yes, he needs to learn to sit down during snack time and circle time but there's nothing wrong with him not yet wanting to constantly partake in adult-led activities. As un-PC as this sounds, (through my work in several nurseries) I have found that some boys mature at a different rate to girls. They all get there in the end but at that age, they are still babies IMO. Let him run around and be a child and then revisit the situation in another 6 months. I did read the thread but I may have missed this, when does he turn 4?

[Branleuse]

well threemusketeers, arent you the wonderful parent!

[shewhowines]

Bit harsh Bran there was a point to the post in the last sentence.

[Branleuse]

I dont mind being harsh where it is warranted.

Of course many 3 year olds cant sit still for very long.

When the attention span differs wildly from the norm, then they suggest extra support.

This isnt the same as putting a dunces hat on them and caning them, and it isnt about fitting them into a box. Its about helping your child get the most out of a situation that you want them to be in.
Early intervention has SUCH a lot of benefits, and its always gentle gentle intervention. You really mustnt take it as an insult. I think nearly all children would benefit from this sort of extra help, but it is generally only offered to children for whom it really is properly necessary.


On the other hand if you think its absolutely fine that he wants to run around all day and not listen to anybody ever, then youre probably best to keep him out of school for longer, but if you want him to go into school, then theyre just telling you they need to access a little extra support for him. I really really struggle to see what the problem is here.

[xylem8]

They just think he is a bit lacking in concentration that is all.I have worked in both pre-school and infant classes, and by 3 even the boys are mostly capable of sitting for a few minutes and obeying instructions, leading up to a maybe 10 minute concentration spell (on something they might not be particularly interested in) in reception.Even though it is a learning through play curriculum, there are times when the children do need to listen and concentrate.
The chances are your little boy (who sounds lovely) is just a little immature in some areas.But if there is something more, then surely you are better finding out sooner rather than later.If he has a bit of extra support she can work with your DS on something he is really interested in and build up his focus bit by bit, as well as keeping him on track with following instructions.I can understand why anyone would be put on the defensive but really I think it is avery good sign that the setting have identified that your Ds is outside or at least on the periphery of normal 3 yr old boy behaviour and furthermore are prepared to do something about it!

[ThreeMusketeers]

Firstly, yes, I am a great parent because I try my hardest to teach them what any parent should, and as a result, our children are doing brilliantly. Thank you ever so much for your compliment.

Children need support and guidance true, but not from professionals, but from their parents.
This farming every bloody responsibility off to the state is idiotic and so prevalent, it's scary.

[Branleuse]

I try my hardest with my children too AND they need, and get extra help from their schools. My eldest didnt till 7, and my other son was lucky to have early intervention and was statemented at 4, before starting school, and is doing brilliantly too.

You are insulting

[TigerSwallowTail]

I can relate to your op, your son sounds a lot like my own ds. From my own experience, extra support certainly isn't handed out where it isn't needed, and isn't a bad thing either. They're preparing him for later on when he goes to school so he can get the most out of it and won't struggle. It is hard hearing that your child is struggling, especially when you hadn't realised it yourself, but I think turning down this extra support and taking him out of preschool may not be the best answer.

[adeucalione]

ThreeMusketeers, I think you may be assuming that all parents are capable of, and willing to give, support and guidance to their children. IME as a teacher, this is sadly not true at all.

And then of course there are those situations where fantastic parents need to take on a more supporting role and let the professionals take the lead, for all sorts of reasons.

Also - the school may indeed be hell bent on retaining their outstanding Ofsted, which they may have acquired at least in part by being exceptionally astute in picking out those children who need extra help?

Don't you think there is a difference between a child who would rather chase butterflies (most, rightly so) and a child who cannot cope when told that they can't chase butterflies?

[ThreeMusketeers]

Yes, I suppose you are right, I am assuming rather a lot.
Yet I'm basing my assumptions on my own experience and the people I know. Which is quite a homogeneous sample of humanity.

OPs child doesn't sound, from her posts, to be completely uncontrollable, just immature and in this situation, I truly believe that parental intervention and guidance, structured and repeated ad nauseum, will do the trick.

[Asheth]

Don't make any decisions before talking it through with the pre-school.

I can understand totally your feelings. My DS was identified as having some SEN by his pre-school(Speech and language, which was affecting how he behaved and socialised.) I had my own concerns about his speech, but nothing else and always thought it would sort itself out. I felt totally shocked that the pre-school found such major concerns. And once agreeing to the SEN process I felt like I was being ambushed practically every day with things to sign, read etc. My DS is cute, funny and generally adorable so I felt so upset by this process and absolutly hated his lovely keyworker and thought about removing him from the pre-school. That would have been totally the wrong decision. He has had so much support from them, but always in a fun way and his pre-school experience has been brilliant. And I have nothing but respect and gratitude for all the extra work his key worker put in. My DS starts school this year and will need some support, but thanks to his pre-school that's all in place.

You need to set up a meeting, listen to their concerns, find out what support they want to give him. Also ask them about his strengths. It's possible that they're being over picky and formal too soon. But I doubt it. After seeing how much extra work is involved, I can't imagine them suggesting this lightly. It can be an emotional process, but even if your DS does have any kind of SEN it doesn't change who he is. He's still your cute, adorable, perfect baby!

[Branleuse]

Can anybody think of any negative things that might happen if a 3 year old gets a bit of extra support at school

can anybody now think of any positive things that may happen from this?


Can anybody think of what may happen if a child who needed the support all along, doesnt get it?


Of course good parental input is vital too

[pigletmania]

Equally How do you know te boy has sn? He is only 3 fgs, still very little, so much so in some countries formal school does not start until t ages if around 6/7 for a reason. Op is also a professional and would also know if her ds has sn? My dd has asd anwas quit t opposite of opposite of op ds, very cool an distant towards people and Chidren, liked to play on her own, very emotional, repettivev behaviour, poor communication. All te real problem sounds with ops ds. His concentration and difficulty following instructions which may develop in time as his cognitions develop.

My dd now 6 went to a nursery attached to the lock primary and staff were lovely both positive and also gently broke te news to us that dd had significant difficulties and applied for a statement hich she got. Dd now goes to a specialist autistic school which sh is doing so well at. Op I would go back to his original nursery until the time comes for school

[Lollydaydream]

Threemusketeers your posts are really upsetting and offensive to those of us who have tried our hardest to help our children learn to speak and thrive but have had to get them extra support. Sometimes what you can do is not enough, try to imagine what that feels like before you trot out such trite, smug assertions.

[pigletmania]

Totally agree pussycatwillum sounds like the same thing happening with op. I would pull him out not because he might need extra support because of te staff negativity and attitudes towards this little boy. I would not want him in an environment like that

[mrsjay]

threemusketeers are you always so smug oh and paranoid a school and a parent can share they teching of children and a school and a preschool can also do this , the fact that you said any sort of intervention other than parental is scary makes you sound paranoid,

OP have you decided what you are going to do yet ?

[Asheth]

ThreeMusketeers it is not just about the parenting. My older DC breezed through the pre-school and infant years. Doing everything at a higher level than expected, behaving perfectly etc. My youngest has needed extra help from his pre-school and will at primary school. So am I a 'great parent' in what I've achieved with my eldest or a 'failure' because of my youngest? Or perhaps - neither. I'm just doing the best i can with my very different children.

And a child will get the best start if parents and teachers work together. Of course teachers can get things wrong sometimes. But parents can sometimes be too emotionally close to fully see a problem. The OP removing her DS from pre-school and letting him play outdoors all day may be a good thing. Or it could just store up the problems for when he starts school. Only by listening to what the pre-school have to say can the OP make that decision.

[Kleinzeit]

Oh dear, how stressful. I don?t think the preschool have handled this very well to be honest, brilliant OFSTED report or not. If they had concerns about your DS then they should have called you in to discuss them with you, not waited for you to call them.

Where I?m coming from is a rather difficult place, so apologies in advance for this. My DS went to a lovely nursery, from the age of 3 months to 5 years. He was happy and settled and their leaving report on him indicated no problems whatever. He was lively and outgoing and bright though he could be bossy and tantrummy, but if there were any problems, the nursery dealt with them. He was the kid they trusted to take the younger kids to the toilet, he?d be sure they?d wash their hands! They were very happy with him and were sure he?d be fine at school.

Well, he started primary school, and within two weeks he was unrecognisable. At home he was in a permanent state of rage and despair. The teacher told me that when things went the teeniest bit wrong he was utterly wild. Within a year he had a diagnosis of an autism-spectrum disorder, and from his second year he had full-time support in the classroom. And although the first year was hell for everyone (DS included!), once he had the support things gradually improved. To me it seemed as if the primary school went to huge trouble and expense to re-create the atmosphere he?d enjoyed at nursery

The reason I?m telling you this story is a remark that the head teacher made ? ?if he?d come to our pre-school we?d have picked it up and had the help in place before he started school?. I?m not saying this is necessarily your story ? your son sounds very different from mine and anyway a friend of mine who did send her son to the pre-school felt her son was being picked on as having problems, quite unfairly! I?m just saying, it can go either way.

[cory]

ThreeMusketeers Fri 05-Jul-13 14:27:41
"Yes, I suppose you are right, I am assuming rather a lot.
Yet I'm basing my assumptions on my own experience and the people I know. Which is quite a homogeneous sample of humanity."

Well, don't you think that might explain it? If you tried to get to know a heterogenous sample of humanity you might gain some extra insights.

(Or perhaps you need somebody to explain the long, difficult words to you. I think my children might be able to oblige).

[halcyondays]

If the op's ds loves going to this preschool, then why take him out? it would be different if he hated going, but he seems to be happy there. it can take a while for support to be set up, so if they did apply for it now, then it should be in place by the time he starts primary school. Is he likely to be going to the attached primary school?

if he was taken out of the preschool and no extra support was sought, then what would happen when he started primary school, if he needed help and nothing was in place? it could lead to greater problems down the line. there would be no harm in getting the extra support if it was available.

[mumofweeboys]

Hi

Is the preschool/nursery u r sending him to in sept attached to the school u wish to send him to? Only ask because I didnt send my ds to the one attached to the school I wanted him to go to and it was a near thing getting him in.

[ThreeMusketeers]

I don't understand your question , mrsj.

To quote from Telegraph (see the article below):

''... Inspectors [Ofsted] suggested that state schools were being encouraged to over-identify pupils to attract more funding from local councils and to boost their position in league tables that give weighting to schools with high numbers of special needs children...''

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