To say why not use IVF to choose the sex of a baby?

[Poppycattlepetal]

If people could save up for the IVF required, just don't see who else's business is it if they have a boy or a girl baby, really?

It seems U that we are not legally allowed to try for this in Britain. Clearly, we'd not all choose boys. See this mother of five sons in the Indy today: www.independent.co.uk/news/science/ban-on-sex-selection-of-ivf-embryos-is-not-justified-says-ethicist-8683940.html

It is allowed in US to do this, and you don't hear of a population imbalance over there. Just what seems like an incannily high proportion of celebrities who have twins, one of each!

I do get the issues about things being very different in other countries where there can be a cultural pressure to have sons of course. And i'm only talking about methods used before pregnancy begins. And obviously this would have to be genuinely freely chosen. Just feel that as the majority in the UK doesn't share any particular preference, why not let the people who do really mind, have the choice?

[lydiajones]

It seems wrong to choose gender unless there is a medical reason (ie. hereditary diseases in one sex).

[IfIonlyhadsomesleep]

I think with gender disappointment perhaps the answer isn't education but accepting that its a real phenomenon and counselling people through it, without necessarily offering gender selection as the answer. But I say that with extreme caution-some would argue that we should have been counselled through our infertility rather than be offered donor conception-which I know people have mixed views on. I think dilemmas like these are why the hfea exists.

[ICBINEG]

I wish I lived in the future...when people don't think the most important thing about their child was it's gender.

I have a problem seeing past the idea that if you only want a child that is the 'right' gender/race/hair colour etc. then you really shouldn't have a child at all.

Is the idea that you would counsel people who already have a child they find they can't love, or to counsel people who think that might happen before they have children?

Having a child is such an awesome responsibility and privilege that a lot of me thinks we should all be on compulsory contraceptives until we have proved we are up to the job of parents.

I have a large doubt in me that I would have passed such a test - but what with global environmental concerns far fewer children being brought up in a far better way would undoubtedly be a better solution.

[NayFindus]

How would the child feel about it? If I knew my parents had chosen my gender I would have so many questions - would they love me if I was the other gender, should I think males are inferior because they didn't want one, should I choose only female children because that's what they chose? It does all seem a bit 1984.

[GoodTouchBadTouch]

I think its a lovely idea. Who wouldnt want one of each? They call it family balancing. My friend had IVF/PGD for gender reasons after having 4 of the same gender. I think it should be legalised in this country for couples who want the opposite of what they already have

[VelvetStrider]

I'd be concerned that if this were permitted, there would be a significant number of rich, controlling men putting pressure on their wives to have gender-selective IVF instead of natural conception. It seems a very tough process to go through to accommodate someone else's preference.

[MrButtercat]

Sooooooo not a big issue or any different than fertile rich couples trying for a particular sex naturally.

I always wanted both sexes.

I'm lucky I got both,they do differ in the same way siblings of the same sex do.No child is the same.

My dd is a tomboy,hard not to be having brought up in a household with 2 sets of twin boys however there are things that differ with her being a girl.I was a girl,I've never been a boy.Dd and I amongst all the boys have an understanding and I love it.

IVF is a routine procedure,selecting embryos re sex are no different than my consultant selecting embryos re suitability.It is routine and there is no valid argument against it imvho.

[CHJR]

I have three children: DS1, DS2, DD. Both DSs were created by IVF; DD was adopted. DS2 has significant SN. (Brace for more acronyms to come!)

In the first months of our TTC, I was sure I would never resort to anything as immoral and disgusting as IVF. But when the time came I was grateful, and now can?t remember why I ever quibbled. Now I know a lot of women of all nationalities who did the same, and even now I seem to be the only one who isn?t ashamed of having used IVF and doesn?t consider it a secret to be hidden from what we bitterly called ?civilians.? My point: many people feel shame or disgust at something that isn?t, logically, wrong.

While trying TTC DS2, we enquired about pre-implantation genetic testing (PIG). We didn?t ask about gender, but I admit considering it. My father was one of 7 boys, his father was one of 9 boys, and of 25-odd cousins alive, I am the only girl; DH is one of 3 boys, FiL one of 3 boys. IVF is known to lead to more boys ? perhaps the petri dish favours fast (male) sperm over endurance (female sperm). My mother died when I was young, and I think my father and I had ever since cherished a notion she might be ?reborn? through my daughter some day ? those of you who worry about confused expectations around gender selection are not wrong.

In the end DH and I didn?t ask about sex; we did ask about genetics. Because of our years of TTC, I was nearly 40 and at risk for Down?s. The doctor recoiled in sincere horror: in that country, it was illegal to pre-screen embryos in any way. But, he added generously, if I conceived, he would give me a free amnio and do any necessary abortion himself. Imagine how we in turn recoiled.

Ironically, it was the child conceived then who is SN. Equally ironically, he doesn?t have Down?s or any disorder that either PIG or amnio would have caught. It was because I couldn?t consider abortion that I had asked about PIG. But I believe abortion should be legal, and my father and I have always felt my mother died young mainly because she spent time in jail for fighting for women?s rights, including abortion. Abortion is now legal in my birth country, and is beginning to skew the gender balance. I despair of finding a right answer here.

When we applied to adopt our third, we were automatically asked which gender we preferred ? even in UK it is normal to specify both gender and health of child. Again much heart-searching. Though people often assume adoption is more ?altruistic? than IVF, it too is a maze: do you think all those mothers in China really want to abandon their daughters? Have you read the scandals in Asia, in Latin America, of adoption brokers buying or even abducting babies from poor families? But is it really immoral to want children that nature makes impossible? Our Catholic priest reminded us that IVF is a sin. We adopted our third, and we asked for a healthy girl.

Having TTC for over 10 years, I saw so many situations. I have a friend who applied to adopt and was matched with what she was told was a healthy girl. After 24 hours it became clear the baby wasn?t healthy. My friend got medical checks, then gave this baby back and got a different one. I know my friend thinks of this ghost daughter when she looks at her three healthy adopted DC. I know she will never tell her DC about this choice. I?m too exhausted by my own moral struggles to judge her; I am so glad I never had to face such a choice.

I have several friends who, while I was still unable to get any child, conceived and aborted (as late as 6 months) after amnio showed major genetic problems. I have two friends who conceived with donor eggs, fertilized with their DH?s sperm and implanted in their wombs. I chose traditional adoption, but after all, the adoption of our DD involved donor egg, donor sperm, and surrogate uterus, didn?t it?

Certainly, if I could have controlled my life, I would never have chosen to have a SN child, to adopt, or even to use IVF. Does that mean I don?t love my children, or love less the disabled one or the adopted? The fact that I had to face choices makes me more, not less, grateful for my three so-hard-won miracles.

Decades ago, I attended a conference with one of the doctors who developed the technique for the two-egg IVF that has just become available (basically you combine the yolk from one egg with the white of another). Asked about the ethics, he answered: after spending my whole life working on the edge of an invisible and wavering line, I?ve concluded that when you start limiting the freedom of choice of people who are already here in favour of people not yet even conceived, that?s when you risk becoming a eugenicist or tyrant.

If our relatively homogenous community at Mumsnet don?t agree on this stuff, then I don?t think there is an answer obvious enough (yet?) that a government should make it law.

[exoticfruits]

Lots of people don't want one of each and lots don't want a 'balanced' family! I do think it weird that we are told what we should want because a particular poster wants it!

[MrButtercat]

Ditto exotic,just because you don't want both doesn't mean others shouldn't want both or be helped to have both.

[EmmelineGoulden]

CHJR what a great post. Thank you for sharing the maze of choices people struggle with so compassionately.

[digerd]

A few years ago, I contacted my local major library to ask if after the last war, were there more boys than girls born, in UK.
The records were looked up and the answer was NO. For the years recorded, each year there were almost equal boys and girls born.
The 'almost 'referred to a few more boys being born to supplement the fact that more boys than girls died after birth/at birth.
Both ending up equal.

[IfIonlyhadsomesleep]

Icbineg - I guess you'd counsel people afterwards because they wouldn't know how much they were affected. This is no new phenomenon-only today I was talking to a lovely guy in his fifties whose wide has had a lifetime of feeling second best because her mother wanted a boy and made no secret of it. Perhaps of she'd been able to talk it through properly with a professional it could have been avoided. There's little value in demonising people for having feelings. Telling people it's unacceptable to feel a certain way doesn't stop them feeling it-just talking about it. And those feelings might very well affect their children.

[Poppycattlepetal]

Sorry this is a long post. But I think there have been a few assertions floating about which people haven't actually substantiated. Such as that:

• people who feel strongly about wanting one or the other sex are in some way viewing their future child as a 'possession' or a 'commodity'. why should that be so?
  

• it's not possible to love the kids you've got, if you are interested in choosing the sex of their future siblings. Again, why does this follow?
  

• that all parents seeking sex selection will want to rigidly enforce their own ideas of appropriate gender-expression on to the unfortunate sex-selected child.
  

-Why would these parents be less likely than you, me or anyone else to let their much-wanted sex-selected girl or boy child become their own person? Why would such parents, despite liking the idea of having a girl or boy baby, be too silly to work out in advance, that not all girls like pink and not all boys like football, etc?

Also by the huge trivialisation of IVF by some posters. it's hugely expensive, exhausting and I think the best odds you can possibly get is only about a 50% chance of taking home a baby. Never anyone's decision of first resort or done lightly.

Also to the arguments on here that boil down to: because it's not in my own experience to want something, therefore its totally fine to legally prevent all others who want that victimless thing, even if they are made very unhappy by not having it. Then that bit of smuggery is followed up by calling into question other people's competence as parents if they do dare to express that they want the abitrarily illegal thing.

The sort of suspicious default view some posters on here have of other parents is just a miserable way to think about others IMO. Why assume others would care less for their children than you do for yours? Or must have bad motives in wanting the experience of parenting a boy or a girl?

We are all entitled to disapprove of whatever, but I feel that in these sort of very personal family matters the criminal law is currently intruding where it shouldn't.

[Poppycattlepetal]

Thank you very much for your post CHJR.

[MrButtercat]

Poppy if you are fertile the odds in your favour are very good.

The new techniques mentioned last month(natural ivf and the phoography thing)are going to massively improve results further and lessen risks.

Re expense and trauma yep been there,done that however that doesn't mean those who want to and can should be stopped from doing it.

[SuburbanRhonda]

poppy, you mention criminal law intruding where it shouldn't - surely IVF is about as intrusive as it gets?

[PeriodMath]

Poppy, your questions in your last post are deliberately obtuse. Good answers have been given repeatedly to all of them. You sound like my 3 year old saying "but why??" to everything.

[Alisvolatpropiis]

poppy

Yeah the criminal law is intruding where it "shouldn't" before it is required. Like it is in India,where nobody is even allowed to find out the gender of their unborn child as there is such a massive preference for boys.

I'm truly shocked you can't see that.

You can't always get what you want, in this case that would be the gender of your choice.

[GoodTouchBadTouch]

I disagree Period - the reasons people have given are lousy.. such as "It makes me feel funny"

I think it was a good post and would like to hear the answers.

[Poppycattlepetal]

Sorry, I know how tiring that can be PeriodMath but if I came across like a questioning 3 yo, it's genuinely because some other posters are basically just making their points with 'Because I said so'.

[ChocolateBiscuitCake]

I am blonde, my husband is blonde - why on earth would I 'design' a brunette baby?!

For anyone who really is considering this process: there is a wonderful, supportive website that is well worth joining. Lots of lovely, understanding ladies who are non-judgemental and sympathetic.

PM if you would like the details.

[exoticfruits]

,just because you don't want both doesn't mean others shouldn't want both or be helped to have both

I can't see why anyone should be helped. A child is a gift-not something you say 'well of course I am pleased they are fit and healthy, but actually I got the wrong sort'!

I used to think that every parent should be given the following poem in the delivery room-now I think they should get it when they first contemplate having a child.

On Children
Kahlil Gibran

Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
For they have their own thoughts.
You may house their bodies but not their souls,
For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.


You can plan your perfect wedding, choose the dog you want, get your car in a particular colour-thank goodness you can't order the child you want. Despite people on here thinking they want to order their 'perfect' combination of family I very much doubt whether they will ever be allowed to-I really can't see it it happening.

[exoticfruits]

Before anyone jumps in-of course you should be helped have a child if you can't. You shouldn't be able to buy treatment to be helped to the one you want.
I hope no one is suggesting that NHS should pay for your 'designer' family.
If it is down to money that means that it is only available to the rich-who already have the misguided opinion that money is the answer to everything.

[ChocolateBiscuitCake]

And because of your extreme opposition against the idea - it is exactly why there will never be a gender imbalance nationwide, that so many posters seem to be concerned about.

Thankfully there are other countries who have a more sympathetic stance.