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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To not really get how phonics works in the English language?

52 replies

superstarheartbreaker · 24/03/2013 09:26

So dd is doing phonics at school and is learning to read and write. I have noticed that most words are not phonetically spelt which is causing a few misunderstandings. IMO most words are so called 'tricky' words. Or am I wrong? I can't even remember how I was taught at school. I do think that the actions that go with sounds are great though.

OP posts:
MajaBiene · 24/03/2013 13:31

Some children will simply learn the words right off and intuitively work out the phonics behind them to apply to other words, but some aren't able to do that without being taught it explicitly. The aim is for all children to learn to read.

What is your experience of teaching young children to read? If a child sounds out "skee" all it takes is for an adult to say "good try, but does that sound right?". I don't think 5 or 6 year olds do find that kind of thing shaming or hilarious Hmm It's a skill that good teachers (and parents) should be instilling in children - to keep persevering if they don't get it the first time.

MajaBiene · 24/03/2013 13:32

No you are right badbride, and that is why phonics is used to teach children spelling as well. They need to know which letters represent which sounds.

CecilyP · 24/03/2013 13:37

2am, most early reading books will use vocabulary that the majority of children are familiar with. They should also be reading books aimed at their own level to an adult, not making a fool of themselves in front of their peers. Agree there is no point expecting a child to work out words containing 'ough'.

badbride · 24/03/2013 13:52

Thanks for the info MajaBiene. I remember scratching my head when the whole synthetic phonics debate kicked off in the media not that long ago, and wondering how the heck you could teach a child to read without teaching letter-phoneme associations.

Then again, people who are born deaf successfully learn to read English, even if their first language is Sign Language, which presumably has no phonemes. So I guess it must be possible.

2aminthemorning · 24/03/2013 13:59

horry - Many parents will not know that. The comment was made in as a response to a parent who has posted because she doesn't 'get' the system. The argument for phonics being overly complex has been made from the outset; advertising your familiarity with phonetical nuances only underlines the problem! If you have to know that to help your child with reading, there's a problem.

MajaBiene · 24/03/2013 14:06

Many schools run info sessions for parents on how phonics are taught, so that they can help their children.

MajaBiene · 24/03/2013 14:07

And most parents will already know enough about phonics themselves, since they can read. If you are able to read, then you know what sound the letter combinations represent.

2aminthemorning · 24/03/2013 14:37

Maja - if child is struggling to grasp the rule when taught implicitly, they are likely to be the very children in the class who will struggle to grasp it explicitly. And what makes you think phonics is only being taught to five and six year olds? Let's talk about the process for seven and eight year olds, when teasing and humiliation is more of an issue - listening to a word being sounded out when you already know it can be intensely irritating and that needs to be acknowledged because a secure learning environment is paramount.

Maja and Cecily - I don't know if you are only familiar with small class sizes where one-to-one attention is the norm, but this is not the environment in which most children in which most children learn to read. Perhaps you could reflect on how much time your children have had sounding out words to you in a very safe and affirming space and then imagine their progress without your input.

Cecily - Your point about known vocabulary doesn't go far enough. There will always be words that children don't know and it's likely to be the less able children who don't know them. Also, it can be paralysing for children to know that they are supposed to know the words they are sounding out. Have you ever said "Come on, you know this?". I've heard it so often! Along with a titter from bored, more able children who are, quite understandably, assuming that it's easier to read a word you 'know' than a word you don't.

Aside from a TESOL diploma with some overseas experience of primary level teaching, I've also entered a school to intensively teach reading to (amongst others) a very gifted, autistic seven year old on a one-to-one basis over the course of an academic year. I hold an MA in the Written and Verbal Arts and have carried out multidisciplinary postgraduate research relating to children and their treatment of written stories. I've also volunteered extensively in a number of different schools, listening to children work with stories in real-time. But I'm not a professional primary school teacher and my observations come from the 'outside', if you like.

LindyHemming · 24/03/2013 14:46

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2aminthemorning · 24/03/2013 14:50

And Maja - concerning your assumption that 'most' parents will recognise what the letter combinations represent and be able to help accordingly - these are two wildly optomistic assumptions that would be touching if they weren't so dangerous. Are you talking about 'most' parents insofar as the parents you have to associate with? Have you considered the literacy problem we have in Britain and the fact that English is a second language for many parents? Are you sure that the overwhelming majority of parents in the UK are completely comfortable sorting out their 'cough' from 'drought' and 'though' and 'cloud'? Bearing in mind that a less confident parent is less likely to even try to intervene.

2aminthemorning · 24/03/2013 14:52

euphemia - I don't think anyone can nip it in the bud completely, all the time.

LindyHemming · 24/03/2013 14:53

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LindyHemming · 24/03/2013 14:54

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2aminthemorning · 24/03/2013 16:16

euphemia - children know through sighs and fissling. They just know...

HorryIsUpduffed · 24/03/2013 16:20

2am yes, my Oxford-educated DH just can't work out how to break down a word into graphemes for DS(4) to read. Like I said before, understanding what the building blocks are is the foundation.

In Y1 classroom they have a chart of all the vowel sounds with possible spellings together - eg ie with ei with igh. I reeeeeally want a copy: at the moment I have no idea what he knows, and I know he is being taught inside-out as well, so that facing the sound [ai] he is trained to think "could be ie, could be ei, could be igh" etc for writing as well as seeing "ou" and thinking "could be oo or ow or oh" etc for reading.

Feenie · 24/03/2013 16:33

euphemia - children know through sighs and fissling. They just know...

I'm with Euphemia. My classroom is a completely safe place to make mistakes. It has to be. There are no sighs or fissling, and most certainly no tittering.

If a child is struggling with a word, I would tell them the sounds to enable them to decode it, or just tell them the word, rather then listen to them struggle.

Feenie · 24/03/2013 16:35

Does this help, HorryisUpduffed?

LindyHemming · 24/03/2013 16:46

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Feenie · 24/03/2013 17:16

I assumed it was a variation on hissing, but I am betting it was an iphone correction now Grin

LindyHemming · 24/03/2013 17:25

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MajaBiene · 24/03/2013 18:25

2am, I really don't get your point. Less able children shouldn't be taught phonics because they might make a mistake while sounding out? What is the better alternative - memorising words, guessing from the pictures?

HorryIsUpduffed · 24/03/2013 22:49

Thanks Feenie, will look when on pc (format not supported by phone so am guessing pdf).

TraceyTrickster · 25/03/2013 02:51

Interestingly my daughter went to reception in UK where she learnt phonics.
She is now in Y1 in Aus where they learn 'chunking' so things like 'sur' for surprise or surround.

My DD is finding the chunking a bit tough...but I have read with her class and many find this tough. DD gets through many words by sounding them out and then saying out loud and looking for what she knows which might fit. Like 'uniform' un-i-for-m...then she casts around til she comes up with the right word.

Her teacher and I have had several chats about this and the conclusion is....different methods work for different children. But ultimately if they are keen and do not have learning difficulties, they get there- just at different speeds.

Feenie · 25/03/2013 06:40

No, they don't. Around 20%, some of whom may have been surrounded by books and read to since they were born, struggle to learn using whole words or mixed methods.

hopethesnowgoessoon · 25/03/2013 06:59

Ok, so I have read this thread and am even more confused than ever!!! Can't remember how i was taught in the mid seventies things didn't have names back then - but think it was just learning words and reading reading reading! I think I know my words and letters well and can speak properly (h = aitch not haitch). Not sure what to do am teaching my pre schooler my way but don't want to confuse him when he gets to school!!