To have some sympathy for Nicola Edgington?

[lougle]

Report from BBC

This woman had killed before. She knew she was a danger to the public. She dialled 999 four times to tell them that she needed sectioning to prevent a killing.

I know she did what she did. I can't imagine what her victims' families are going through.

I do feel some sympathy for her though. She tried to get herself out of circulation.

[Dawndonna]

Flojo
I'm sure I detect a distinct lack of both empathy and sympathy.
Haven't I seen somewhere that you are a mental health nurse?
Haven't I stated before that I hope you are not one of dh's nurses?

[lougle]

wannabe perhaps I'm odd, but I do have sympathy for all those people. The human condition shows through the awful story and I always think 'they were babies once, what happened to them?' Even Adolf Hitler. All of these cases are abhorrent, but actually, when I look at the person...there has to be something seriously wrong somewhere that you could take a person's life deliberately.

I studied the Harold Shipman case for a project at Uni. It's quite unbelievable that he did what he did, how he did.

I still feel that if a woman phones 999 and says 'I feel dangerous, the last time I felt this way I killed someone.' that is a clue that, in fact, she had previously killed someone and further checks should have been done, somewhere.

What has happened to policing is tragic and indefensible in my opinion. It is not the fault of individual police officers. It is the constraints of funding. The bankers still get their bonuses, though, don't they?

[Flojobunny]

Lack of empathy? Why? Because I said half the patients don't actually need to be there? That's because if the community team are doing their jobs properly most illnesses can be managed successfully as out patients. It seems the community team failed in this particular case. She should have had numbers for crisis team etc, did she use them? I would have thought that was important to this case, or did she fully intend to murder and wanted to give the police the run around? We'll probably never know.
Has your DH murdered someone? If not, then I don't see why you are using your DH to make a point. I feel sorry for him if you bring him in to it just because he has mental health issues.

[Flojobunny]

Empathy is a whole new debate anyway. Does it really exist?

[AmberLeaf]

Yes empathy definitely exists.

It does for me anyway.

[Dawndonna]

No dear, my dh has not murdered anybody. He does get DLA though, he has self harmed in the past. I was referring to your comments on not being particularly ill and trying to manipulate the system for attention of DLA.

[Flojobunny]

dawn some patients get admitted on the grounds of "if you don't admit me I'll kill myself" etc. Sad but true. For DLA.
A lot of people get DLA who don't need it, and a lot of people don't get DLA who do. Probably more the latter.
Amber we can try to be empathic, I have been both patient and nurse. But just because I have been a patient I wouldn't be so arrogant as to say I can empathise. Everyone is different. I don't believe true empathy can exist. 2 people can go through exactly the same thing and will never feel exactly the same.

[AmberLeaf]

Yes but empathising means you at least try. Its not about feeling the exact same thing.

If someone is suicidal why the hell shouldn't they be admitted though?!

[LadyPessaryPam]

Amber I did find this about empathy:-

Lack of empathy is one of the most striking features of people with narcissistic personality disorder. It's a hallmark of the disorder in the same way that fear of abandonment is in borderline personality disorder.

I find it worrying that someone working in MH should think empathy doesn't exist.

[AmberLeaf]

I do too LadyP.

[Flojobunny]

Being suicidal doesn't automatically mean you get admitted.
A lot of suicidal people are managed well in the community.
I don't know what the community care is like in your trust but it sounds like you don't have any faith in them.
Empathy is not about 'at least trying'.
It's about putting yourself in their shoes and thinking about what might help them. But unless you have walked in their shoes then you can never have true empathy. Most people think they have empathy when really they have sympathy. Whilst being compassionate is paramount, sympathy isn't always the best way forward.
I didn't spend my life at uni, working nights, weekends, earlys, lates, missing Xmas with my kids just for someone to make out I am not good at my job just because I don't patronise patients and pretend I have a clue what they are going through.
I treat them like individuals, not make assumptions about what they are thinking/feeling.

[Flojobunny]

Lack of empathy is also prevalent in psychopaths and ASD (to name the obvious) and loads of other conditions. What is your problem with personality disorder?

[Domjolly]

I just cant belive somone walked into A&E said i have killed before i hearing voices and may kill again and they did what just let her walk out un bloodly belivable



If you cant get some one to save you from your self then i give up she even called police on herself in her despration

[Flojobunny]

Is that what she said? That is bad. But who did she say it to? The person on reception or the oncall psych?

[Domjolly]

The people at reception and also again when she called the police she got frustrated that no one in the hospital was pay any notice to her if t hey just checked her blinking name

It took the police two minutes to check who i was when they pulled me over thinking i was a black man under my base ball cap last night at the pertol sataion so why couldnt they check i wouldnt of thought most people ring up and say i killed i might kill again please keep me locked up ffs

[Flojobunny]

You'd be surprised what people say when they ring 999 or to hospital receptionists. But yes I'd have thought it was a good indication of psychosis.
But a hospital receptionist or indeed security can't hold someone.
The police could have though but I think they were sent away.

[AmberLeaf]

Lack of empathy is also prevalent in psychopaths and ASD (to name the obvious) and loads of other conditions

That is not strictly true. [the ASD part]

There isn't just one type of empathy, people with ASD tend to lack cognitive empathy, but not emotional empathy, but there is a lot more to it than that which Im sure you know.

It's about putting yourself in their shoes and thinking about what might help them

That's one aspect of it yes, but again, a lot more to it than that.


Most people think they have empathy when really they have sympathy

Well I know the difference between the two.

[Dawndonna]

Lack of empathy is also prevalent in psychopaths and ASD (to name the obvious)
That may well be the case with psychopaths. The latest research (Baron Cohen, Digby et al) demonstrates that in fact the opposite is frequently true.

[Latara]

It is possible for stressful situations to bring on 'breakthrough' psychotic symptoms which is what i'm finding at the moment... i'm unsure whether to call my CCO or not because maybe i need my meds increasing.
Can i just say that i would never harm anyone else though just because i have this problem.

[ike1]

I assume she was not sectioned at that point and therefore was free to go....no one is to blame...this was a very regrettable and VERY unusual case.

[AmberLeaf]

Hi Latara.

Why not give your CCO a call to check?

[Latara]

I know i should call my CCO but i get embarrassed; but i will call her.

[AmberLeaf]

Hope you get it sorted and are feeling a bit better soon.

[ATouchOfStuffing]

What I can't understand is how the judge called her actions 'selfish' ! Even in her mentally confused state she was trying to protect other people.