AIBU to think you can still stay together for the sake of the children and it work out

[fluckered]

we cant seem to live together anymore. things out of our control his depression and my lack of tolerance to live with it anymore. we have one child. 80% of the time we are just living as lodgers no arguments. every once in a while it kicks off but we both shield our son (either in school or asleep). therefore i feel it will be worse on him if we seperate as we can actually live with eachother. no physical contact, very little emotion, just going through the motions. i feel deep down we still do love each other but i feel trapped and stuck but because i can just get on with it (other than it flaring up once in a while as i'm sure other couples do) think its better for ds. he is my focus, my world, my reason for living. so aibu to think this arrangement is less damaging for him? he is 5 btw

In my case, my parents held on until a few weeks before my 18th birthday, right after my younger brother's 16th.

I've a feeling I've seen elsewhere that children as young as 12 are allowed to make their own decisions re. contact, does anyone else know if that's the case?

It's still a long way down the track though, Changenamer. I think perhaps it would be an idea to let the "perfect" relationship mask crack sometimes, let your DD and DSD realise that things are not all ok. Because then it will be less of a shock when you do leave (and really, much though I sympathise with your choices, you cannot do this forever - only as long as your DD really needs to be kept safe)

Amber - from Changenamer's point of view, if she can't prove the alcoholism, on what grounds would she be able to insist on supervised or withheld contact?

Ok changenamer, fair enough if you are worried about outing yourself.
There are other agencies that could help/could have helped you though, if you google your location and domestic violence you will find something.

Thumbwitch, Her DH has been violent etc to her which had an effect on their DD as stated in her first post, I think the easiest way would be for her to report the violence to the police. I know that is a big scary step because it makes it 'official' and 'real' but that is what I would do. Having it officially recorded is key.

I've read this in it's entirety.

I think perhaps when life disapoints you, it is natural to try and protect yourself from further sadness.

Sometimes we get it right, and sometimes we don't.

I'd be very curious to know what relationship Changenamer101 has with her parents as a child and now. This thinking is not spontaneous in an adult that has had a happy, healthy upbringing.

What traumas did you suffer through, Changenamer that led you to believe you are in a battle of life with no hope of winning? Who told you you are not worthy to receive the love you do deserve? What role models did you have for adult relationships?

As children, the wrongs of our parents are imprinted on our psyche permanently. The lucky few realize what damage was done and can work hard to overcome this. The rest plod on deluding themselves that this way of living is normal and repeat the cycle.

I would have more sympathy for you, but you are using your children as a shield against the world. Awful.

Quite classic upbringing Doe. Parents still happily married, brother and sisters all married with kids and only one divorce (and remarriage) and one death. Quite a large extended family, again all quite close. I'm the youngest, lots of cousins my age, lots of company. Childhood was great really, not loads of money but not poverty stricken. Dad worked full time, mum part time. Did well at school, no bullying or anything like that. First job was shit but second job I'm still in now, albeit in a more senior capacity. No traumas or tribulations, still in touch with childhood friends. I left my home town for work but travel back often to see family and friends. I'll be devastated when I lose my parents as will DD and DSD.

I'm quite hardened, don't have much time for whinging and whining. Have no time at all for people that blame someone else for their ills or think the world owes them a living. Im open to a point, quite blunt, no need to be coy. But at the same time my private life is mine alone. Very aware that no matter what there are a million people worse off than me and I'm very grateful for that.

I don't think there is any point in trying armchair psychology on me. I don't think I am 'worthless' or any bollocks like that. I just think DD is more important than me and I'd rather make her happy (and do) than me. Over and above all of this I really don't see why that is wrong. I would give my life for my daughter if we were in a life and death situation, most parents would, surely? All I am doing is giving up a part of my life now to ensure she is happy and safe.

I don't know what the future holds, no-one does, but telling me I am damaging my daughter now is wrong. I'm not. I'm doing my best for her.

Giving up a part of your life is understandable. Certain hobbies or nights out or money for nice clothes, etc. all the little things parents normally give up (sacrifice) for their children, that's ok.

To deny yourself your basic human rights to love, security, safety, a sense of well-being, self-esteem, self-love, independence and freedom of thought. You have none of those.

This is not a Black-and White situation. You don't have to deny yourself to give to your children.

Really.

No, really.

Bottomline: A happy mother is a happy child.

(Yes, your daughter is probably oblivious to it all now. Your daughter is too little to understand adult reasoning. At 7 years of age, or sooner even, children begin to understand right from wrong.)

So you have two years to figure it out I suppose. From your stubbourness on this thread I imagine it'll take you that long at least.

but telling me I am damaging my daughter now is wrong. I'm not. I'm doing my best for her

You think you are and you are telling yourself that you are.

Why don't you take on board people here's experiences of growing up like that?

What do you think is different about what their parents did and what you are doing?

I'm quite hardened, don't have much time for whinging and whining. Have no time at all for people that blame someone else for their ills or think the world owes them a living.

Even yourself?

Now I know it's not the done thing to link to other threads but in this situation I think it might be helpful.

There's one in relationships which has been started to support adult children of alcoholics.

No need to say any more I think.

Just read the last ten pages and am horrified at your situation, Changenamer.

Whilst I can see that you are doing what you think is best for your DD and DSD, and while they are small (how old is DSD?) it may actually be the case, please believe me, as a child of a similar marriage (with one hell of a lot more intermittent shouting, which took place after we had gone to bed but we heard it all, nonetheless), it won't last.

As soon as your DD is old enough to have a mind of her own, she will start asking questions, maybe answering back - how is your H going to react to that? If he's anything like my father was, it will be badly. Such men are lovely fathers while their daughters are compliant and well behaved. Any sign of anything else gets treated very harshly.

She will notice the drinking. We all did, once we were old enough. Although she didn't mean to (I hope), as the eldest my mother used me as her emotional crutch and then would rewrite history, whitewash things, lie to my face to keep up her facade of a happy, loving family. She couldn't even admit it to us while we were all living with it and now denies it ever happened and tells us we 'exaggerate'. Or the subject will be changed. The consequence of growing up being told that what you witness/feel/hear isn't true is that I can't trust people. Not even my lovely DH, not completely. It has scarred me.

One thing I saw in your original post really worried me - that you 'big up' your H to your DSD even though you don't mean it - do you really think she won't suss this out and start to despise you for it? Does her mother do the same (big him up)? Because if not, the conflicting messages are not going to be doing her any good at all and will lead her to distrust you.

When my mother gets maudlin for my (now-deceased) father and goes on about what a great provider and a generous man he was, I shrivel inside and it makes me dislike her intensely because she cannot admit her marriage was anything other than a success, even now he's gone. I suppose the lies become a habit and then become your own version of the truth if you keep them up long enough :( . Much as I love my mum, I have no respect for her because of this. Is that how you want your DD/DSD to view you?

You missed off the from your passive aggressive last post DoeEyed. Are you normally like this?

Love isn't a human right, but it if was I get plenty of it from DD and DSD. I don't need the love of a man, or to love a man to make me happy. Everything else in your list is happening too, so...?

I am a happy mother and I have a happy child. I'm an unhappy wife is all.

Amber Why don't you take on board people here's experiences of growing up like that?
But I have and as a result I am looking into the future and what it may hold. I've only been posting for a couple of days, I'm hardly going to make changes that quick am I? DD is 7, she sees nothing wrong with the way we live and is happy, healthy and loved. I go out of my way and against my feelings to make sure she sees nothing untoward.

Or do you think that she'd be better off living as I described above?
If it is a case of the lesser of two evils which would you pick? And don't say "but that might not happen" - what if it did?

Ada, DD is 7 and doesn't know what an alcoholic is, has never seen her father drunk (or me for that matter) and doesn't suffer because of his drinking. I shield her from all that.

Thumbwitch, I think the mask slipping idea is a sensible one, thank you for your understanding.

fluckered, I note that you say you and your H still love each other, deep down. I do think it's worth trying everything to see if you can make the situation better. Is your H properly medicated for his depression? Have you tried couples counselling?

Changenamer, I'm glad you've said you'll go back for legal advice. I can see why you are worried about the residence issue, so ask specifically if in the event of a separation, it would be possible to require your DH to make an undertaking not to drink alcohol during contact visits, along with a hairstrand or breathelyser test. I'm not sure what is legally possible, but ask your solicitor what kind of evidence would be acceptable in terms of his excessive drinking. Maybe you can start putting together your case for residence before you leave. Fwiw, my ex tried to claim he was the primary carer because he has a rather uneven employment record, to put it kindly. I left, taking DD, so established the status quo that I was the primary carer.

I can see why you think you're making the best decision, but you'd better make damn sure you're basing your reasoning on a realistic post-separation scenario. It would be rather tragic to waste so much of a life based on mistaken assumptions about the law.

I think we all want to do the best for our dcs, but living our lives with authenticity matters. I'm not arguing for parental selfishness, but if we are not authentic ourselves, how can we set that example for our children?

My parents had times of happyish marriage, and times when they were at war with each other. They will be celebrating 40 years of marriage this summer. They married young, and I don't think they are well suited, but divorce has never been an option. I'm actually glad they've always stuck together, and I expect my brothers would agree. It was only when I watched DH's lived up parents together, and asked him how often they argue, that I realised how turbulent parents marriage is.

Loved up parents even.

But I have and as a result I am looking into the future and what it may hold. I've only been posting for a couple of days, I'm hardly going to make changes that quick am I?

No, of course not, I wouldn't expect that at all, but it's the way you seem to be pushing forward with the argument that it's not that bad and it's not affecting your DD adversely, even though others here have recounted how similar has affected them. you don't seem to see the parallels. You are still stating categorically that it is all fine.

DD is 7, she sees nothing wrong with the way we live and is happy, healthy and loved. I go out of my way and against my feelings to make sure she sees nothing untoward

I don't doubt she is loved.

But so many people have told of how they knew despite their Mums putting on an act. Again I don't understand why you think it will be different in your case when you admit that your actions are not congruent with your feelings.

^Or do you think that she'd be better off living as I described above?
If it is a case of the lesser of two evils which would you pick? And don't say "but that might not happen" - what if it did?^

How about this, you carry on as you are and it will go the way others have described. You are not happy and your DD grows up with an illusion of a good relationship, but one day it will come crashing down.

Or, you make a change, you are single but happy, you daughter lives in an honest household where what she sees is how it really is. She is happy and you are happy.

Don't say 'that might not happen' what if it did?

I understand you must feel got at Changenamer and that's understandable. It's clear from your posts that you're a loving mum who wants to do the best for her daughter, and step daughter. That really does shine through.

I know a seven year old doesn't know what an alcoholic is, why should they? But they won't be seven forever and will soon realise something is not right even if they don't know what that something is.

If you take anything from this thread, I hope it's the eventual realisation that your and you're daughters deserve better than to live your lives in this way.

Oops, you're not you're.

But you answered my question with a question Amber. I'm listening to you and taking what you say onboard, but thats a bit unfair of you. Can you not see what I am saying? Can't you see how hard this is?

I can answer yours - of course I would rather be single and happy with a happy daughter, who wouldn't be?

But DD won't be happy living in a shit tip with a father that goes to bed at 7, even if she didn't see the drinking. Or a father that forgets to feed her because beer means he has no appetite and all the other myriad of things that would make her life untenable.

Sensibly what I had taken from this thread is that it needent be forever. I need to find out what age DDs wishes will be taken into consideration and I need to find out if there is any way of proving alcohol abuse. They are probably the only things, realistically, that I would have on my side. I think if I cannot prove the alcohol abuse then I'm screwed and I will have made things worse for all of us.

If I had a 50/50 option I would rather DD hated me for 'lying' to her than hated me for tearing her family apart just to make me happy.

DSD is of an age (senior school) that she would recognise heavy drinking, if not alcoholism, but I am loathe to drag her into this. Her mum is an above average drinker I would say, ie wine every night, but that is seen as normal these days isn't it? To me it's excessive, but that's because I don't drink at all (and when I did wine turned me into an idiot far quicker than any other drink).

Maybe IMHO some posters could have gone a bit more gently with Changenamer (especially now we learn she's only recently started posting) but I know the challenging has been well intentioned (and we are well known as a nest of vipers after all !)

What I hope you take away from the thread is a gradual realisation that how you're living now may not be, and needn't be, forever.

In cognitive therapy there's the idea of challenging people during counselling to consider whether they 100% believe what they are stating as their position or whether maybe there could be some grey areas, perhaps a few chinks of light beginning to shine through into some of those darker places.

I think this is why changenamer is here on the thread.

Wishing her and others love, luck, and courage anyway x

Just X posted with you there Changenamer and really pleased to see you saying that what you'll take from the thread "is that it needn't be forever"
Good luck with the journey

While I disagree with what changenamer is doing, I do believe that she is doing what she thinks is best for her child. Isn't that all any parent can do really?

While I still feel angry towards my mum for staying in such an awful situation, the counselling taught me to step back and try to look at it from her view point. She honestly believed she did the right thing, she still does to this day. I just feel so incredibly sad for her that she wasted most of her life - she thinks it was worth it.

I've had to let go of that, accept that we have very different ways of looking at the world and go on to hopefully not repeat the same mistakes when I have my own children. I'm sure I'll make other mistakes though.

This whole thread makes me so sad. As a chld if divorced parents I know 100% I would never 'stay together for the kids' too many people get hurt

My parents stayed together... It was hell! However now we've all left home the seem happy:/