To say dv is often carried out by people who are 'charm personified'

[notnagging]

Just got me thinking. I know people who's partners seem lovely to the outside world but are monsters behind closed doors. That's the whole point. When something does happen people don't believe it.

[IfNotNowThenWhen]

Thanks guys. I have never actually told any of my close friends all of that. In fact, never written it down. I am glad I am the kickass diva I am today, and when(if) I do settle down it will be with a decent bloke. I thank my lucky stars that this twat was not ds's dad.

sadandtired I hope you know that you need to leave this excuse for a man. Nothing about what he does to you and your poor DD is normal, or excusable.
It's not your fault. It's him. He won't change. He will only get worse.
Please contact women's aid. Help is available, and no-one will blame you. x

[IfNotNowThenWhen]

I think that is the key merlot. Once you become dependent (and that happens because they make it so, not because you are weaker than other people) it is so hard to find your own strength again.

[Merl0t]

yeh, and they guage the extent of the abuse so perfectly to match your level of dependency. At first they just take advantage of the simple things, like that you'd like a boyfriend! then they take advantage of the fact that you don't want to have to tell everybody what your boyfriend is really like, ..... always perfectly measured out isn't it?

[PrannyHamster]

There was a guy I knew years ago, and although I was never in a relationship with him I was unfortunate enough to see a very unpleasant side to him a few times and I still feel anxious thinking about him and any woman he might be with now. He was a "golden boy" type, everyone thought he was perfect. As a teenager,
I couldn't articulate at the time what I found so awful about him, but there were so many small incidents in his behaviour towards women that were always laughed off or ignored by others. I wish I'd known then what I know now, although I don't know what difference it would have made :(

[Merl0t]

Pagwatch, sorry, I'm coming back to this one because i think it's really important that we don't ignore our judgement.

I am not saying that I could walk into an office/gym and randomly spot the abuser out of fifty odd men, 'from his eyes' . Nothing like that, But I am saying that now, after 7 years with an abuser under my belt, I recognise the mindset when I see it, and I recognise the comments that would be typical of that type of man. The behaviours and comments I would have pushed to the back of my mind in that previously relationship (in naive optimism and confusion), now I wouldn't push them to the back of my head, I would go into a state of hyper alert, waiting for a bit more information before I make my conclusion. But I would be in a state of heightened anticipation of the next dodgy comment or behaviour.

So, what might seem like a sixth sense as a result of one dodgy comment is much more than that to me.

[MsTakenidentity]

Street angel, house devil...as the saying goes

[Pagwatch]

I am not for a moment saying we should ignore our judgement. I don't think I have said that, I don't think I implied it.

If anyone gets a bad vibe/red flags from someone then you keep away.

I am saying let us not extend that into the idea that if you have your wits about you and look hard enough then you can always tell. Because the vast majority of people simply can't.

[GinAndT0nic]

I think we actually agree, but just labelled it differently.

Time and time again on these threads I've read posters saying that there were signs they pushed to the back of their heads and forced themselves to ignore. That is a common theme. All the pieces of the jig-saw are there, but most people don't race to put them together. I do. FOr me now it happens like an involuntary response.

I wouldn't imagine and haven't claimed to be able to tell at a glance. But I am still very confident that if I spend enough time in an abusive nark's company (whether he's a colleague, friend's husband) I will see him for what he is. THIS.TIME

[GinAndT0nic]

Plus, in the 6 years since I left my x there have been maybe two men who I've thought, oh hello, you're in that club I see.

[HerrenaHarridan]

Yanbu.

[GinAndT0nic]

sorry, but eureka lightbulb moment for me here, that is what i have labelled 'a sixth sense'. It's that involuntary piecing together of the clues, like breathing, yawning, sneezing! clues which, before (pre nark x) would have remained disconnected and not much help to you in isolation. THAT is "the sixth sense" and it's very common when you've spent a long time with an abuser.

[Bunbaker]

I agree. Bullies are the same. The girl in my daughter's class who has been so mean to her is charismatic and charming, but an utter cow to anyone she doesn't like.

[Pagwatch]

Yes I think we are mostly agreeing

I also think we are talking slightly at cross purposes and that that is my fault. I think most people on this thread are talking about spotting a man who will become abusive to them in a relationship.
I am talking about someone who charms their way into a friendship or relationship to abuse their children. My viewpoint is as a child whose family was duped into allowing a paedophile access to me.
I had thought that was clear from my posts but I now think it probably wasn't so apologies if that confused matters

That said - my only point is this
(I will try not to fuck this up)
Whilst we can develop the ability to spot signs and that helping others identify warning signs and then not dismiss them is absolutely right, I just want to flag up that to step further - to imply that one can always tell if you just look hard enough - risks a blind spot.

It's like the down side of the whole Sarah's law debate where a parent armed with detail of local sexual offenders feels as though they know where the risk is when actually an abuser is more likely to be someone they know.

To say 'I always know. I can always tell' is impossible to counter because if an abuser is able to maintain their charming persona then how do you know you have missed them?

I genuinely doubt that anyone would have spotted my abuser. Maybe I am wrong. But he went unpunished and his abuse of me was not revealed.
So it is possible (highly unlikely of course ) that you met him, thought he was a nice bloke and would never ever know that you were wrong.

Does that make sense?

I am not suggesting that people cannot be incredibly astute and spot potential abusers. I really am not. And getting red flags out there is so important, as is convincing people to heed them.
I am just saying don't assert that it is infallible.

People will get duped.they will get into a relationship with an abuser or they will unwittingly allow an abuser access to their children. Let's not suggest they should have known.

[littlemisssarcastic]

I admit it does annoy me somewhat when people tell me that they knew from day 1 that my ex was a twat.
Every single thing I discovered about him, someone says they could see it a mile off from the moment they laid eyes on him.
The fact that he was driving on a provisional licence, that he had had allegations made against him for crimes before I met him, that he had never been in the forces, things like that.
I find myself mistrusting my own judgement even more. How could they see this the moment they clapped eyes on him yet I didn't know and why, when they are scoffing at me that they knew, it was obvious, didn't I see it?
Must be because I am obviously unbelievably stupid and everyone else is so much more clued up?
Even more annoying when they can't see how nasty their own ex's were or even how awful their own partners are, yet are so not surprised at a single thing my ex did.
I'm sure if I told these people xp was a bloody murderer, they'd still look at me like I was stupid and ask me again. . . how did you not see it? really?

[GinAndT0nic]

I hear you Pagwatch. And now that I thnk about it, my posts were all about men in abusive relationships with adult women. i think child abusers are a whole different kettle of fish because the acting role they are taking on is bigger, more complicated, more devious.... I woudln't feel confident I could tell if a partner was a child sex offender if he was also simultaneously being respectful and kind to ME. gosh what a scary thought.

[GinAndT0nic]

AdverseCamber, is there a register held informally by a women's charity?. I know it wouldn't be a legal thing. But I feel I would like to give my x's name to some organisation. It is all behind me nwo, but he tried to strangle me, and then offered me a cup of tea five minutes later. I know it's behind me, and I don't want to stir up trouble, but is it right to walk off and not have it down on paper SOMEWHERE that he has 'form'. of course he would say that i'm a bad mother and that that should be recorded. 7 years of treating me like a bad dog, and the next woman would have the SAME uphill battle to be believed. it just doesn't seem right.

[GinAndT0nic]

and, a paedophile doesn't necessarily HATE WOMEN deep down, or in a fairly straight forward overt/"jokey" way like the text book abusive nark does. They are attracted to children but that doesn't mean that they're any more likely to HATE women.

[bottleofbeer]

My sister's ex now has a criminal conviction for assaulting her. There is a lot of SS involvement wrt their kids. He has a new girlfriend now (and for some reason felt the need to point out to my sister how much better looking the new gf is) I was at a core meeting on my sister's behalf last week and his probation officer told him she had to meet with his new gf to inform her of his conviction. He claims she already knows, he slowly sent my sister mental over the last seven years, so he's got his case made. She's mental, forced me to hit her. Sadly the new gf will likely go along with that. I've written about my sister in more detail on other threads.

He's insidiously desroyed any fledgling relationship she's ever had since they split. She meets someone, the ex suddenly can't live without her and promises marriage etc...the kids are on the at risk register and it's always been made very clear they are to have NO contact or legal action will be taken. IE the kid's go to my parents and they lose all custody. His desperate need to control her even now means he will actually risk legally losing his kids but on the outside he's the happiest, jolliest dad.

The comments about his eyes, I'm not saying hey were ever some big, red flag to me - this was just something that was so evident to me when it dawned on me what he is. Couldn't believe I'd missed it and it goes without saying some people might just have flat/lifeless eyes and be good as gold. To clear up any misunderstanding :)

[Darkesteyes]

They are not all street angels. Im guessing that the men who yell derogatory comments about my appearance when i sometimes walk past pubs in the town where i live, are the sort who will then go home and do the same and worse to their partners.

[kickassangel]

I really need to start saving articles I read that I want to quote later.

A few weeks back read one that showed date rapes are often perpetrated by a relatively small number of men who deliberately target and isolate women, and that the same pattern is often seen in abusers. So those of you who work in charities in a small town, you probably will see some names recurring in a range of victims as they hone their skills and move on.

On the one hand comforting that there really isn't a vast army of men lurking in the shadows to get us. On te other hand, very worrying that it is so calculated and deliberate. I really think anyone caught committing abuse should be treated harshly, it is a very planned and subversive attack on another human being.

[maddening]

Sadandtired - speak to womens aid now. Can you start a thread in relationships?

If dp kills himself that's his choice but don't let him destroy you and your daughter. His ego probably won't let him. (My ex used the suicide threat he is still alive)

Get help. Get counselling. Get away from him. Keep your dahhter safe.