To say dv is often carried out by people who are 'charm personified'

[notnagging]

Just got me thinking. I know people who's partners seem lovely to the outside world but are monsters behind closed doors. That's the whole point. When something does happen people don't believe it.

[Birdsgottafly]

The worse part about my situation is that i am a CP SW, who helps women out of their DV environment and i supervise contacts between abusive adults and their children.

I work with women who have no financial dependancy on the men who abuse them and are in danger of losing their children.

The men ( i have only worked with a few female abusers and it was very different) have a psychological hold over these women.

That is why we always insist (it is written into the child's plan) that the women attend groups and courses.

"Distorted reality" ( as you describe) is a big part of abuse carrying on.

Thisis why i don't like women to be portrayed as victims,or having to flee, as they are most trapped by what is going on in their heads and that should be challenged, rather than agreed with (i am speaking when working one to one).

[Pagwatch]

I hesitate to say this because I genuinely agree with much of what is said on this thread so bear with me.

I am really nervous about the whole 'I can always tell' ' something dead in the eyes' stuff.

If you have a good antenna that's great.
But talking about ways in which you should be able to spot an abusive charmer is not helpful IMO.
Firstly I think it is unlikely tbh.
The majority of people still talk with great fondness about the man who abused me yet I suspect if I told them they would fall into two broad groups of those who don't believe me and those who really knew all along because there was always something dodgy about him - in spite of never speaking of him in anything other than fabulous and affectionate terms for several decades.
Certainly that has been my experience amongst those I have actually told.

Secondly it just piles 'stupid and didn't spot the obvious signs' implications upon the victim.

Thirdly there are probably a chunk of people who would steer clear of everyone in DSs school on the basis that they are probably dodgy because they can't easily make warm genuine eye contact because they have ASD or social/communication difficulties.
Perpetuating the idea that eyes are the give away just feeds the hostility and suspicion they already experience.

I hate to sound like I am disputing the tone of the thread - I really am not- but I think suggesting we can spot abusers by intuitivly sensing cold eyed creepiness from them is not, in my view, helpful.
If you believe you can tell then great. But let's not pretend it is a sixth sense type vibe that anyone can tune into if they just look hard enough.

Women can only keep themself safe, we can only keep our children safe, if we are rigorous in not deceiving ourselves that we can spot abusers. Thinking we can just tell makes us in danger of being complacent.

[Thewhingingdefective]

A good friend of mine, who I first met about ten years ago when she became my new boss, told me about her first husband who physically abused her - he squirted Cif in her eyes, strangled her, locked her in, rang and checked on her all the time - and told me how she put up with it for such a long time because he was so lovely to everyone and so popular that she felt it must be her fault that he became a monster behind closed doors.

I met the guy briefly just once. He was a complete charmer - came over as warm, genuine, down to earth. I didn't pick up on any red flags in his behaviour, I just kept thinking about all the stuff my friend had told me about him and how appearances can really be deceptive.

[Birdsgottafly]

I agree with Pagwatch and i would like to also add, that i the social conditioning of women has a lot to answer for.

[Sallystyle]

My mum got into another abusive relationship after she left my father. I knew after speaking to him for a a while that he was an abusive arse. I think my father taught me what to look out for pretty well and he isn't the only sociopath in my family so I had experience with spotting signs that lots of people don't have. It's not a sixth sense, just experience of growing up with one and knowing a few and researching it.

Thankfully my mum is now settled with a lovely man but it was horrible to have to try to get her to see that her ex was just like my dad. Unfortunately he managed to slowly break down her confidence bit by bit so she didn't even believe in herself. It took a very horrible situation for her to finally realise and I had to just sit back and watch it unfold as I was helpless to do anything else.

I found the book "The Sociopath Next Door" a pretty interesting read.

[Birdsgottafly]

I carryout out parenting assessments on abusers of all types, sometimes before and ater the removal of children and whilst there are signs and red flags there, you cannot assume what that person is or isn't capable of, tbh.

People often "confess" at the end of the process what was actually going on and how they feel/think, it is surprising how much of an insight some people have into themselves, but still don't want to change.

I work alongside psychologists and CPN's/psychiatrists and they sometimes get it wrong.

On a personal level, choose who you want to mix with, of course, but i don't think that it is fair to say what you think to other, as i have heard school yard gossips do, as sometimes there is smoke without fire.

[chocolatesolveseverything]

Just to say I understand and generally agree with Pagwatch's point about the dangers of the 'sixth sense' approach.

As earlier described, I met one guy when he was in a stressful meeting and the vibes he was giving off were genuinely disturbing to me, though others in the room didn't feel the same.

But statistically I must have met/worked with/socialised with quite a few domestic abusers throughout life, and I can't remember responding in the same way to anyone else.

[Sunnywithshowers]

I also agree with Pagwatch.

Despite my childhood experience of abusers, I still ended up in abusive relationships. I didn't get a bad vibe from any of them before I ended up with them.

[maddening]

I just remembered - when a friend of ex and me actually saw some of his behaviour - as she and another friend had popped round for a cup of tea when it was happening and ez was physically removed by male friend (exmarine so lots of muscles) she said when she first met us he took her to one side and explained that I was a psycho nutcase etc etc and also if he was with mutual friends and I rang one of them (not ex) he would tell them to not let me meet up with them as I was crazy - so he was constantly undermining any existing friendships or new ones by advertising me a crazy - so if I was distressed after he'd been a twat to me and I did reach out to friends for support they were under the impression I was a loon -it is only when they saw him in action (he was a binge drinking alcoholic so sonetimes did do his thing with an audience if he was incredibly drunk) that they understood.

[VisualiseAHorse]

Yes.

My ex was extremely charming - he charmed everyone around him, women, men, everyone. Me most of all.
Behind closed doors he was violent, rude, arrogant, just a horrible person. His anger was terrifying. He used sex as a weapon, got me hooked on drugs to keep control of me, hated me talking to other men. Locked me out of my own house, accused me of sleeping with another man (funnily enough, that man was gay!), throttled me, pushed me, threw things at me.

But eventually, the people around us got to see his nasty side. Towards the end of the relationship, people often told me 'you can do so much better', 'why are you wasting your time with him' etc.

[NicknameTaken]

sandandtired, don't live like that, don't put your DD through this.

Harm himself? Chance would be a fine thing.

Harm you and your DD? You're right to take that seriously, but it doesn't mean you should stay, it means you need to be very clever about leaving. Contact WA - go to a refuge if you need to.

Honestly, life is so much better when you get free from someone like this. They make you feel they are so all-powerful that they'll always track you down so there's no point trying to run, but they really don't have as much power as all that. You can get away.

[Sunnywithshowers]

sadandtired he sounds like an abuser to me - physically, emotionally and financially abusive. I would suggest contacting Women's Aid.

[Merl0t]

sadandtired that WAS my life. I took it for as long as I could, out of a conservative notion that being a single parent would be worse somehow. Or a fear that I'd change my mind. If he ever sensed I was thinking about leaving he'd make threats like 'burn your bridges and there's no coming back'" and he'd say it so menacingly too. As though he were some dream ticket to an easy life! Life was hard with him. I used to dread his key in the door. I also had to pretend to be delighted wth whatever piece of cheap crap he gave me. I shopped in penney's and he shopped in Paul Smith. He was the meanest godammed fucker. still is.

what are YOUR thoughts sadandtired you're not alone. You see him for the piece of work he is and that's the first step. Do you fear leaving him? my x put up a big fight for about 12 weeks and his drama oscilated between ten day cycle consisting of 'oh come back sweet heart, to your loss, to well fuck you you bitch!!'. We had to go through about 3 or four times before he got it, really, really got it that I wasn't coming back. so funny really as all the times he'd threatened me that if i left him, i couldn't come back! the wonderful prize that he was!

[Merl0t]

pagwatch i can't speak for others but my own 6th sense comes NOT from the eyes, but from comments. A comment which mightn't make anybody else think twice will have my radar out on sticks. After a few comments I'll make up my mind thatt that is a man I want to avoid getting to know any better at all costs. Would you call that a sixth sense? or just closer attention to what people reveal about themselves?

[NicknameTaken]

I think I could pick up on it, but only when the charming abuser is in a particular mood - one where they are angry underneath, but holding onto the public mask. I don't think I could see through a charming person who is actually in a good mood.

[TheCountessOlenska]

I definitely don't have a sixth sense for abusive men but I always remember the "red flag" of being nasty/dismissive towards your perceived inferiors - because I come across it at work. I work in a "nice" department store and on several occasions have been quite gob smacked at the aggressive attitude displayed towards me by some men (not saying I don't have difficult female customers too btw but it's a different vibe) - often the attitude is combined with a kind of jokey/jolly thing (think someone mentioned this up thread) but really making me feel like something they have scraped off their shoe. They invariably have an attractive, well groomed wife with them who stands there in silence. I reckon I've come across about 3 of them.

[Pagwatch]

MerlOt
I don't know. I think if you can spot problematic behaviours then that's great.

I wasn't trying to argue with anyone. I was just trying to express a point of view from having the man that abused me generally regarded as a thoroughly decent man by everyone who didn't know about his abusing.
Many of them were perfectly astute and observant. He didn't go unrecognised because people were just not paying attention but because he was really really good at deceiving them.


I am just suggesting that to imply people can spot a charming abuser if they are attentive enough might not be the most helpful thing to suggest either to victims or potential victims.
If you genuinely have that antenna that's great.

[notnagging]

Get out sadandtired. Easier said then done I know but noone deserves that & your dd needs to have a chance to see that her father is not a normal role model.

[AnyFucker]

sadandtired your daughter is being treated appallingly

you may not care much about yourself....but I don't think for one minute you want her to learn the kinds of damaging lessons she is currently being forced to endure

[IfNotNowThenWhen]

My abusive ex was:

successful
ambitious
very engaging and interesting
funny
outwardly kind and family oriented
talented
Jealous. (Really jealous. The first time I noticed anything odd was when we were first dating and out for dinner. He got in a strop because I was, apparently flirting with the waiter.)
Never wrong. Ever.
Belittling
overpowering
critical
cagey (he had affairs)
financially controlling
Physically intimidating. He used his large size to full effect.

Eventually, once my confidence and self worth had been sufficiently lowered he started the violence. It was things like biting (he bit my arm so hard he drew blood), pushing, scratching.
He would put his hands round my neck.
He once pushed me down in the street after a drunken row about me "making him" leave his 30th birthday celebrations because I was tired. It was 4 am. Everyone had gone home. I had been working all day and gone out to meet him and his friends straight from work.
He then took my bag from me and ran off with it, leaving me sitting outside my house at 5 am with no money, no phone, no keys.
He told his family I had a drink problem.
Eventually he punched me 3 times in the back, unprovoked, and broke my rib.

I know people close to him knew he had a temper, in that he was seen as an alpha male type, fiery etc, but I don't think they had any idea of the truth. Even now I look back and think, why did I stay after the very first warning??

But that is what is so clever. He had removed everything from me. I would make a friend and go out with them. He would find a way to destroy it.
I was totally dependent, emotionally.
What Merlot says about how her ex doesn't even seem to remember; I think that sometimes. My ex added me on linked in. I mean, does he think we are friends?
I guess the fact that I just left and never pressed any charges, maybe he has justified it all to himself.
It took me 2 years after leaving him to actually wake up and realise that NONE of it was my fault. Crazy.
On the plus side a subsequent boyfriend once broke a door panel in my house in a rage. I immediately called the police. He couldn't believe it! He thought I was joking.(until they came and took him away)...
I just thought. "never again".

Sorry-essay!

[AnyFucker]

Ifnot, I am so sorry you had to experience that

[Merl0t]

ifnotnowthenwhen yes, my x had a derogatory name for all my friends. The lesbian (she had short hair). The spinster (she was a few years older than me and also single), Barbie, (the glamorous one you might have expected him to approve of, but still no, there was no pleasing him). My nick name was "too fucking stupid to cook a ready meal". And no, he just can't seem to remember a single incident where he was abusive. In his version, I left on a whim. He does seem to believe this version. I wonder if he would remember trying to strangle me, pull my hair, leaving bruises on my face, roughly poking shoving and pushing me if he were under hypnosis - maybe. I wouldn't put much money on that.

Pagwatch, I think the issue form women in this situation is that we foolishly ignore our "sixth sense", if I can call it that. It's not really a sixth sense. It's more like having the fucking confidence in our own ability to process one or two extremely misogynist comments, and to believe that we are entitled to draw a conclusion, and then believe that we're entitled to ACT on that conclusion.

For various reasons, some spelled out already here, we ignore the red flags/comments because we're already KNOWN to be in a relationship with this person and we would lose face, or have to admit our friends were right, or we would have to tell everybody we were single AGAIN, or we'd be SINGLE AGAIN, or we want to give him another chance, or we want to give him ANOTHER chance, or, we have nowhere to go and no money when we get there. I saw the signs fairly early on. But when I saw the first signs I was already in a relationship with him. Then when we moved in together the signs were louder. When I was pregnant he broke my things in a temper. It just escalated every time I became more dependent.

[Darkesteyes]

IFNot im so sorry that youve been through that. sadandtired please contact WA. and talk to them. You and your lovely DD deserve a peaceful and loving home which it would be if he wasnt there.