To think change in childcare ratios will lower childcare standards

[moogy1a]

Proposed change in ratios for nurseries and childminders means that some nurseries will almost double the number of children with the same number of staff.
How can this possibly improve childcare standards? Common sense says more children, less attention per child no matter how qualified the staff.
The proposal also seems to think this will lower costs. it won't. Costs per child will be the same but nursery profits will increase.
For CM's the ratios are also to increase. The whole point of CM's is that you can get out and about to parks / playgroups etc. How will that happen with 4 one year ols to transport?

OK, I might be being very thick her, but if this proposal is meant to benefit parents, and the vast majority of parents are against it, then why would she introduce it? In what way does it benefit the government? I'm assuming there's some sort of aulterior motive but can't think what.

chandelina I'm not impressed with school teacher + TA ratios TBH. I'd like to see a couple of TA's per class. If I could shout about that and get it improved I would. But all the same I wouldn't like to see nursery ratios messed about with.

Petition

I've signed this petition, which mummybare linked to earlier in this thread.

I'm too about this to actually post anything constructive atm.

Moogy, see my post above about how the big plan to fund deprived 2-year-olds was falling apart because the government didn't want to pay the levels needed to fund it.

A change of ratios is a back-door way of making it cheaper for the government, settings where parents make the choice to attend will keep their ratios. The parents of funded 2-year-olds will have to take it or leave it.

Another thinking these proposals are awful. I agree with most of the negative comments on this thread. Why, why don't they do something that enables parents to care for their own children during the first 2-3 years if they so wish?
And who are these people getting childcare help from the govt - seems to me to be only the absolute lowest paid. We didn't qualify and joint income is under £30k...?

We have 1:6 in Germany in nurseries. You have to hold your nerve as a British parent when you realise you aren't going to get a better ratio than that, and sometimes it's less, because they're less strict about cover when someone's ill.

I haven't - touch wood - seen any evidence of that ratio being inadequate, or of staff struggling with it. There is however much less regulation than in Britain, it is more like when I was at school in the 1980s. They do have regulations, like police checking new staff applicants and there is a scale of qualifications, but the whole thing is much less litigious and time-consuming, even with a lot more kids per head.

The cost is manageable but nursery is still a huge source of stress to working parents because it is God's own job to get a place. The state nurseries have two-year waiting lists. The reason for this is that although Germany is trying to build more nurseries, there are not enough staff to fill them, and this is because they get paid about 1000? net. a month. There are just as many debates about nursery provision here as in the UK but hardly anyone seems to mention the staff wages, nor do I hear much about this issue from Truss. Surely the government, British or German, has to increase their subsidies so that staff - childminders, as well - get paid more? To reflect that regardless of what GCSEs you have, looking after very small children is one of the most important jobs there is? You are totally responsible for their safety, the consequences can be unimaginable if you screw up, you are the reason women can pursue careers outside the home...and it is very hard work, you don't get tea breaks or lunch breaks. Why do I get paid FOUR TIMES as much for doing classical music all day? Not much happens if I play a wrong note.

If staff are paid more, more people will want to do it, and more good people. This positively impacts on everything: ratios, quality of care, and availability of places. And if the government are putting more in, then nurseries would be able (or be required, in the state sector) to lower their fees. As everyone's said, no British nursery is going to lower fees just because they are to sink their ratios. They'll need any surplus from the old fee scale to bring in cover all the time when overworked and demotivated staff call in sick or leave.

Good-quality childcare is a social issue, like welfare, health, education, pensions. In a civilised society, it has to be supported by the government, that is, by the tax payer.

I see this thread has been picked up by Judith Woods writing in the Torygraph, who has quoted TiggyD and stormforce10!

The more I read about other mums' rage, the more helpless I feel. How can it be that the Govt aren't taking this seriously enough to actually put money into it? Because that's what it's about: the state actually helping young families, instead of crucifying them. These proposals are lazy, dreamt up by Ministers saying: how can we make an announcement to pacify families, whilst actually not spending anything or doing anything?

We live in Germany, and our 10-month DD1 has just started Kindergarten. Ratio of carers to children: 1:5, sometimes 1:6. The kids are all under 2. She absolutely loves it, and the children all seem very happy. But here's the real point: we pay ?110 per month for 25 hours of childcare a week. Because it's run by the state, supported by the state.

The govt is deflecting the debate away from what's actually at stake here. How are families who can't rope a family member into caring for free supposed to build a life for themselves, when paying up to a grand a month in chilldcare? The fact is that while other European countries support future generations (and the families entrusted to bring them up) we cripple those families. And no one seems to be on the streets protesting against this. I say, let's mobilise.

And by the way: next move for us is probably Denmark. As much as we'd love to, we just can't afford to move home.

Deregulating numbers will certainly not bring the cost of childcare down. Prices will stay exactly as they are. The only difference will be that childminders will be able to look after more children and earn a living wage for the hard work they do 10 hours a day - and children will be sat in front of CBeebies more often.

I think that in areas where there is no shortage of childminders and nursery places parents will pay the same for a worse service. However, parents who want their children looked after in a smaller setting will no doubt see their costs increase. A free market means getting what you pay for. Particularly in areas where there is a shortage of childcare, childminders will charge more for a better, more exclusive service.

When my friend looks after 3 children, which she regularly does - I think it's one 4yo and two under 3 - she barely gets time to carry out the Ofsted requirements as it is. She's constantly changing nappies, potty training, feeding, putting them down to sleep. She never stops all day, in quiet moments she catches up with her Ofsted-required observations.

She also has to take her own young children to and from school, as most CMs do. Daily outings - which are also part of the Ofsted regime - are a mammoth task as it is with a triple buggy or having to strap them all into the car when the weather is poor.

The simple fact is, most good CMs would balk at looking after more than 3 children anyway.

The only people who will benefit from deregulation will be the owners of private nurseries, who will be able to pack more children in and turn more of a profit. Most nursery workers will continue to be low paid, usually young with basic training and qualifications and "working towards Level 3".

The notion that a GCSE C grade or above in maths and English will make one bit of difference to whether you are a capable carer of pre-school children is frankly absurd. As is the notion that anyone with GCSE maths and English would go into childcare anyway!

There's simply no such thing as cheap childcare unless your own family is prepared to do it for love and expenses only.

I think reception rations are too high anyway reckon they need 2 tas and 1 teacher.

Its why I want dd2 to go village school in rception class of 20 and 1 ta.

I dared to read the daily mail-please dont judge me online wouldent buy it.

But argument seems to be

non parents resent having to fund childcare
Some say that peoples choice to have kids so their problem not the state.

3rdly sahm mums are lazy and shouldent be paid to stay at home and some resent the free 15hours which is education really and 3hour sessions by time drop off time to pick back up again.

I grew up i single parent family where mum had odd jobs but family always stepped in free childcare both sets granparents and 3aunts .

I dont live anywhere near my family and mil wont have them.

I quite envy people who get free family help but most people move as thats where work is and nothing for us in smalll rural town where grew up rubbish schools, no jobs expensive housing.

I never really felt surestart spread very far wasent in my area not all had nurseries even hv said wouldent bother its not aimed at you.

The councils have huge push on nurseries and preschools to take funded 2year old promising extra support but as soon as they turn 3 the support gets taken away then they left with difficult child who has language, pottry training or behavioural issues.

I have witnessed how a difficult child has disruped sessions, stressed out staff, kids being hit and how much time they take away from others..I dread to think how frazzled they be with higher rations and 2/6 kids were difficult.

My dds nurserys not perfect but shes safe, happy and has freinds.
for me nursery wins over childminder as socialisation aspect.

Childminders vary so much we met one who was so odd.
I wouldent chose 1 who had their own child at you age as would worry other kids woulde be secondry that its just covieniant for them,.

If childminder had older school age kids and took them out and about and had nice large house I would.

I have met some good ones but often see them and wonder how they cope now with current ratios.

Its quite depressing ish we could move abroad as feel squeezed in every direction in uk. I worry about quality of life.

Have signed petition and even donated a bit.

I have added my tuppence here

What I still can't understand is why childminders (or nurseries) would take on extra work, hassle and all round headache just to pass the savings onto parents.

I would expect my childcare bill to be substantially cheaper with higher ratios so they'd be giving themselves more work for no personal benefit.

Baffling.

We really, really must oppose these changes. I would love to hear more from people with experience of France etc as I bet the ratios are disguised by the fact that parents / other types of helpers are used.
There is absolutely no getting around the fact that small children need more one to one attention than older children. My 15-month-old has been teething recently and has had to be picked up and cuddled regularly by her main carer and others working in the baby room. There is simply no way that could have happened as often with a higher ratio of children to staff. There are lots of similar examples. This change will mean lots of mothers who cannot afford nannies - and who believe in the value of nurseries - feeling they cannot send their children when they are very small as the care simply will not be as good. This will really hit many working class and middle class families. Of course it will be fine for those with plenty of cash, as they can always go down the nanny route. The Govt needs to be spending more money on early years education and care, not less. This is not an area that should be cut. Like front line services in the NHS it should be completely protected. This really is an example of the Conservatives being anti women.

European countries where nursery staff cater for loads of children are allowed to exclude children with special needs. A nursery teacher can look after more children if they are all potty trained and have no behavioural problems.

However the UK is different in that our nurseries cannot turn away a child for being nappies or being too much like hard work.

Agree, Fuchi

The magic 'C' at GCSE constantly annoys me - especially now they've moved the bar.

I've seen countless kids over the years not quite make the C in English, usually ending up with a D. Does this mean they can't communicate orally? In the case of my current yr 11 - hell no. Does it mean they can't communicate on paper? No, it just means they may not use a full range of punctuation or be able to apply the correct techniques when writing an essay about their best holiday or a speech arguing for more bins in school.

There's no way changing ratios will affect affordability of childcare. The more savvy childcare providers will still have smaller ratios - and advertise the fact - and charge more for a better service. Parents, who naturally want the best, will pay more for smaller ratios.

xenia the BAPN are concerned that what you say will happen. If these workers are deemed not good enough to care for children when there are other staff around why the hell are they leaving nannies completely unregulated? These childcare workers will go somewhere.

chandellina the C is arbitrary, agreed, but who decide a C was a 'pass' anyway? It's just one of those generally accepted things that noone had ever bothered to challenge. We have a crap attitude to maths in this country. It's ok to be no good at it and that's shameful. In a way it's even more important that we have good mathematicians in early years and pro art. I'm not talking about whizzes at calculus or trigonometry but people who are confident with maths.

In France some settings choose not to work at maximum capacity, DS's nursery is headed by a qualified nurse who spends about 50% of time doing management and 50% with the children and all the staff have the diplome d'état (rather than the CAP) chooses not to have the maximum regularly. She will go up to the max in an emergency for a parent she knows well and I think 1 session is chockablock. I still find there are a huge number of children, they're very keen that the afternoon session naps, they don't do a huge number of activities because they don't have the capacity but they're in a mixed age room which I quite like. Only once a child is toilet trained and can walk confidently will they count in the 1:8 ratio but there's pressure to potty train at 2 on the dot. If they go out then the ratio she uses is 1:2 and that's made up with parent helpers. When DS goes to maternelle, possibly next Jan at 2.9, possibly next September at 3.5 it won't be like school, the activities are more structured in terms of time and the ratios are crazy but they focus a lot on discipline, following instructions and rules to ensure safety and directed play with clear pedagogical aims.

All of that said the expectations are wildly different. There Isuzu more emphasis on confirming in French culture in general, mathsc science and logic are the focus of education with humanities and languages coming a poor second. Respect for 'professions' is normal - you don't question what your doctor, teacher or lawyer says, even if (as a foreigner) you think their judgement may be a bit skewed and heaven forbid you try to try to add pertinent information off your own bat. Partnership with parents doesn't really enter into it.

Most of that is totally normal for them but an anathema for British people, yet it's practically a foundation of the system. There is no way you can compare directly. It would take a cultural shift, of which relaxed ratios may well be a start, but Britain has a tradition of aspiring to individualised childcare, rather than institutionalised.

Sorry that second was to chunderella

In fact maybe instead of the C at GCSE they should just put potential childcare workers through the QTS tests. Those are supposed to be a C, aren't they? And it's a lot more functional than a GCSE, they exist and are computer based do it shouldn't take too much time to administer.

The GCSE C grade was probably Professor Nutbrown working with the current system anyway, given that she proposed 17 changes it was probably sensible not to recommend another!

The great thing about nannies is that market forces can apply. If the loving with lots of experience responsible great girl who may not have a single exam to her name is what you want you can hire her. Free markets always work best. If she ends up useless then you sack her and obviously you probably need someone who can read and communicate but I am not sure they need C GCSE english for that. We are talking about someone being responsible, changing nappies, being patient, taking the baby out for walks etc etc.

travelin it depends on the college (although the NVQ doesn't exist anymore and that was the favoured route for those who didn't meet the requirements for the DCE). Some of them now refuse to accept those without it because they have to take students out of what they're actually supposed to be going to get them up to scratch. And you can be registered with level 2.

The only good thing in the proposals is a little more respect for the qualifications and training of the staff. Overall higher ratio's of children to adults will result in poorer care.
In my experience of working in early years over many years the ratio's are often not what they seem anyway. So, say you have six babies and two staff one may be busy with one to one care eg. changing nappies and the other will be looking after the other 5 babies. So with the new proposals that would be one person left with 7 babies. The same sort of thing applies with the over two's and their new ratio's. Some children need close to one to one care and this hasn't always been established/ funding put in place in the early years. Then there are lunch-times that need covering etc. There needs to be some "give" in the system. If the ratio's are to be changed I hope they'll be applied more strictly (but I doubt they will be)
Hopefully YSWIM