to think Mary Berry is at best naive, and at worst deluded, about feminism?

[MardyBraWouldDoEddieRedmayne]

Times link if you can get through the paywall
free Daily Mail link

Apparently feminists are shouty. We should enjoy being "looked after" and gently persuade our menfolk with our feminine wiles to do what we want. It's alright if you're surrounded by well-meaning malleable blokes.

No mention of equal pay, equal voting rights, equal employment opportunities, freedom from sexual discrimination or harrassment, etc. No - all you need to do, is "persuade them [men] gently to do things and, of course, when they come back they say, ?Oh, wasn?t that fun?? Try telling that to victims of domestic violence Mary...

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

min how do you know the company doesn't benefit?

Surely we don't know what would happen in an untested situation?

We do know that some types of work suit people working flexitime or working from home, though, so I think it's a far from hopeless situation.

[Blistory]

Min, have to disagree.

In my organisation, it's the parents or ones with caring responsibilities that tend to give me 100%. I rather have top notch work achived in a four day week than mediocre work over 5 days.

In return, I reward those who put in the effort so if they need to leave early for an ill child, they don't need to worry about asking. I would rather encourage good staff back after paternity/maternity leave than train up someone new and inexperienced.

It's a partnership - my company benefits from an employee's hard work and therefore so do I . Why on earth would I not value them in return and reward them accordingly ? And forcing men to take maternity leave, forces employers like me to make the necessary changes. There may be a lot of moaning and resistence to it, but that's always the way.

Things are changing - just not very quickly.

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

That is really interesting, blis (that it works in practice).

Isn't there also a bigger context? I'm using really obvious examples to make the point, but as far as I know, before slavery was abolished, people were wondering how they could make it financially viable. And the same is true about making it illegal to have children working fulltime. This is a very simplistic point because I'm not an economist, but it seems to me we do constantly reassess what is 'economically viable' in the light of what we think is fair, and we move forward, right?

[Blistory]

Absolutely, for most professions, it's simply tradition to work Mon-Fri 9-5.

In the interests of ensuring that I was being honest, I've just checked last weeks time records.

Employees 1 -5 - worked 25 hours each, billed 22 hours on average each
Employees 6 - 14 - worked 35 hours each, billed 27 hours on average each
Employee 15 - worked 43 hours, billed 30, so checked online usage - 1.5 hours a day on internet - all after 6pm. So they were here but they weren't working for me !
Me - logged in for 63 hours last week - billed 4. Kind of proves my point myself about presenteeism.

[ithaka]

I don't think Mary Berry has lead a 'charmed life' as another poster claimed. She has worked hard and continuously for decades and in fact as known personal tragedy that has destroyed many (death of a child).

I don't agree with her views on this issue, but I still admire her greatly.

[MardyBraWouldDoEddieRedmayne]

OK "charmed life" is clearly wrong. But maybe she hasn't suffered from sexism.

[mindosa]

Blistory - do you think the fact your company bills hours makes a difference to making this work?

My experience is that you are valued as an employee regardless of whether or not you have children but when it comes to promotions at a high high level, it is highly unlikely that you will be promoted if you are not putting serious hours in.

LRD - Womens equality is constantly evolving but I do think that corporate culture is a big stumbling block in that the women who are making it as CEO's of very large organisations are doing it in the traditional way - there is no new path emerging.

I am not referring to smaller companies because they can always be more flexible

[LRDtheFeministDragon]

Oh, I see! Yes, I totally agree, it's problematic that women are succeeding (great!) but having to do so by using the same old structures. I take your point.

I think a new path will emerge.

I also get the impression smaller companies actually have less flexibility, but I suppose it depends how small we're talking. Obviously a family-run company will have far less flexibility than a large corporation in terms of covering maternity leave, but perhaps the companies in the middle do better? I wouldn't know!

[Blistory]

Min, if anything, working in a profession that charges by the hour would make presenteeism the way to go.

Modern technology means that I can check up that the work I think they are doing, is actually being done. It also means that I can be more flexible in how and where and when they work. So presenteeism no longer has anywhere to hide and will ultimately not be the way corporations work.

I know, because I've done it myself, that hours spent in the office does not equal hours spent working. Not one of my staff works past 5 o clock in an average week. They go home and have a life. That alone makes them a better worker when they come in the next day.

I had one employee let down by childcare one day last week and I couldn't give her the time off. That's unusual for me but the work was critical however knowing that she works her socks off normally, I put her in a taxi to the school and back, told her to bring her son in and gave him a PC to surf the internet on. She was then able to leave early once the project which was time critical, was completed.

What did I get out of it ? The knowledge that the next time we're seriously under pressure, she will stay on and help out if she's able. That, as an employer, is invaluable.

If you'd asked me 5 years ago, I'd have said something different. Times change but slowly.

[MiniTheMinx]

The media is not something completely free to print just what it likes without bias. I notice a lot of: Anti-feminism, floral fashions, retro kitchens, cupcake baking crapadoodle, scrounger & benefit bashing.

I just wonder now, as this economic crisis isn't lifting any time soon, when will we be hit with main stream press stories about how working women harm their children through neglect. It's gota follow.

[sieglinde]

Mary Berry isn't even all that great a baking writer. Her recipes are very amateurish. They picked her for her looks, ladylike granny with a thread of steel.

Blistory, love your tale! Every single junior appointment I've made has led immediately to pregnancy and long maternity leave... but I've always upheld that as the choice of the woman concerned. Thing is though that sometimes quality/continuity does suffer a bit, and I myself took far less time off. That's NOT to side with Berry - but just to say it can occasionally be a bit

[Blistory]

I agree sieglinde and I don't want anyone working here under sufferance. If someone is only at work to pay for childcare and would really rather be at home with their child, then they are not as valued because they don't value their employer. That works for men and women.

It works both ways but it's easier for the employer to lead and set up a culture where staff know they are valued. When they do, they give full value for money and they don't bitch about other staff enjoying their rights because they know that they all have the same rights whether male/female, old or young. It's not just employers who need to change attitudes, it's staff to other staff.

Continuity only suffers because it hasn't yet become the norm. I work in a profession where maternity cover is a bugger to find because of the short term nature. That's why it's my responsibility to have contingencies in place. It was a pain in the arse to start with but it's just become normal now and slowly but surely male staff have begun to wake up and realise that I value them more for being all round good guys and not because their bum happens to be on a seat. So they now take time off but they also provide cover for maternity leave without bitching about it. When they see that they can all benefit, the culture really does start to change.

[MoonLighter]

"OK "charmed life" is clearly wrong. But maybe she hasn't suffered from sexism"


Purhaps she has suffered from sexism but is one of those who just egnores and gets on with what she has to do.

I am reading The Iron Lady at the moment. I always wondered how M Thatcher got on so well in a mans world? Now i know it was because she didn't try to fight the sexism, she just got on with what she had to do and proved herself through sheer hard work and determination.

Purhaps getting on with it and proving you are just as good as any man through hard work and determination is more powerful than trying to fight against it by complaining. No man could argue that M Thatcher wasn't fit for the job in hand because she had proved herself by getting on with it. Mary Berry is the same, she didn't complain about it, she just got on with the job and proved herself to be successful.

[MmeLindor]

I am writing my application to work for Blis right now. No idea what you do, but you could use me somewhere, I am sure.

Seriously. I love that there are companies willing to put real proper flexible working hours to the test. I read about the (then) boss of T-mobile who said that he left the office at 6pm every evening, spend time with his kids and then went online when the kids were in bed. It would have been great if his work-life balance had been encouraged throughout the company.

With modern communication methods, I don't see why flexible working hours, and working from home some days, should not be possible for many people.

[MoonLighter]

But MmeLindor - that's ok if someone works in an office based job but there are thousands of jobs out there where it isn't pratical to work from home or do flexible hours. More manual/practical jobs are very different from office type jobs.

[Blistory]

Haha, it's certainly not Utopia by any means.

The most difficult thing was changing my own attitude but seriously once the men realised that they benefit too, it was just soooo easy. I still catch myself coming out with standard corporate defences every so often but I tend to be aware of them and less resistant to change.

Now if only I could go back and tell my 20 year old self the things that feminism has helped me with and helped me understand.

I do think that women find it tough to point out the benefits that change can bring and I understand why M Thatcher found it simpler to work with the system rather than against it. I found some of her opinions in her autobiography very much in tune with feminism and wonder if she was simply a product of the idea that feminism is nasty and shouty hence her stated disregard for women's rights. I can understand that being the sole voice in a male dominated and very conservative (small 'c') environment was isolating but just wish that she had done more to promote women's rights during her time as PM.

[Blistory]

But MmeLindor - that's ok if someone works in an office based job but there are thousands of jobs out there where it isn't pratical to work from home or do flexible hours. More manual/practical jobs are very different from office type jobs.

I used to argue that for my profession too but employers need to adapt. A lot of what we do isn't suitable for homeworking or flexitime so we adapted ALL our structures to make it possible for there always to be cover. I thought the trials would show it didn't work but it was the opposite.

[amazingmumof6]

Definition of feminism (Oxford Dictionary) : the advocacy of women?s rights on the ground of the equality of the sexes.

see I have a problem with this.
I agree that women should and do have rights as human beings,

but what does "on the ground of the equality of sexes" mean?

[Blistory]

I would think it means that men and women are equal.

Woman are equal to men so deserve the same legal rights and for the rules of society to apply to all. That doesn't happen so feminism wants to achieve a level playing field where you're not judged by your sex.

[MmeLindor]

Moonlighter
There are certainly some jobs (medical staff, sales, police force, teaching come to mind ) that would not be doable from home, but many would be.

I was temping recently, and the job could easily have been done from home, given appropriate internet connection etc. In fact I did some translation work for them in the evenings, because I had to leave at 3pm to pick up the kids.

[amazingmumof6]

I think it must be that the words "Equal" and "Same" get interchanged all the time that causes a lot of problems - for me anyway

(like in maths 6+2 = 8 also 1+7=8, but 6+2 is not the same as 1+7 IYKWIM)

because men and women are certainly not the same....

[MoonLighter]

Blistory - yes purhaps it can work for some businesses but not all can do the flexible working or working from home - especially small businesses.

[SolidSnake]

amazingmum Definitely. I hate when people confuse equal and same. I don't want to be the same as a man by any means, I am proud of being a woman, but I want to be seen EQUAL to a man.

[Latara]

I took MB's advice when asking my neighbour to remove his car from my drive earlier.

Well, being cutey girly & nice didn't work, so i got back to my normal feminist self & that car got moved fast....!

[Latara]

''Will you kindly move your car from my drive''

''No''

''Move it or else''

''yes ok''