to have insisted that DH took the kids on the bus rather than accepted a lift without proper carseats?

[BreastmilkNewYearLatte]

It's an icy evening, and only the main roads around us are gritted. There has already been one car accident in our street today. DH took the kids (DS 18mo and DD 3.4) out on the bus for the afternoon and has just rung to tell me that one of his friends has offered the three of them a lift home. His friend has a car seat for DS but not DD. I said that I really wasn't comfortable with DD not having a car seat and have asked DH to take the bus. DH says the kids are cold and hungry and that the bus will take over an hour - but has grudgingly agreed to take the bus. I don't know whether he's genuinely intending to (TBH I wouldn't put it past him to get his friend to drive him to the bus stop) but either way he will return him very angry.. he's insisting IABU because he has been looking after the kids alone for a fortnight whilst I've been off work with anxiety.

I'm not starting to doubt myself - am I overreacting to this? AIBU to have insisted they take the bus?

[bebanjo]

at 3 1/2 all the car seat is doing is lifting the child so the seat belt does not cut into the neck in a crash, put somthing under the child, lap top in case, pillow, folded blanket, coat and all will be fine.
it is legel to have child in a car with our car seat if unplanned, taxis can carry children in the back, seat belt on, not on someones knee.

[HerRoyalNotness]

We are allowed to do more than the law allows if is is insufficient, we can be better than the law in the case of when child seats are or aren't required.

[LadyIsabellaWrotham]

Arms/hooks, not sure what the official name is, but the bits you wedge the seat belt under so that when it tightens the booster stays more firmly in place against the back. If that explanation doesn't make sense to any readers you may be doing it wrong.

And Piglet - if the taxi is taking you from door to door and then back again then yes, you can take a Britax Evolva with you. Ask other parents arriving at the same time to lend a hand. The other alternative would be a black cab if any if the firms in your area have them - they have a built in booster seat for your 5 year old and you can take the 1 year old strapped into their pushchair.

[pigletmania]

Righ heh you try managing tat and a buggy and a screaming autistic child, dd us almost 6 so would be fine without a booster tbh. It's a few min car journey and dh collects us on the way back with car seats. It's really up,to me to weigh the rsks. It's a very shrt janey by car, but walking would take a long time with autstic dd

[LadyIsabellaWrotham]

Oh and bebanjo, go back and read the bloody thread, you might learn something.

[BertieBotts]

Loads of people don't know about the child on lap thing. There's no need to shout and swear at people, you can get the seriousness of it across without that.

Can I ask if anyone knows what would have been the safest thing to do in this situation? I was planning to travel home on New Year's Day by train. My mum had DS and there were no buses running to her house, she had stuff to do so couldn't have kept him an extra day. We have a car seat obviously, but DP wanted to stay an extra day and had (stupidly) left the car seat in his car. I can't drive so couldn't have driven back. She offered to drop him back sitting on my sister's lap - I vetoed this, obviously, (although she had been planning to do it without telling me just to pick up some toys - FFS!) but then was trying to think of the safest option and wondered whether he would be safer just on the seat itself, given he's 4 and probably too short for the seatbelt, or sat on a very stiff foam neck support pillow with the seatbelt? I guess there is that issue about the hooks (Annie I think Lady means the ones down by the child's hips) but I genuinely had no idea which would be the best of a bad bunch of options.

In the end DP decided to come back the same day so we had the car seat anyway, but sometimes a situation does arise where you don't have the appropriate car seat. I'm glad DS is almost tall enough to use the seatbelt in a pinch although I'll probably keep him in a booster well past this point.

[ChippingInNeedsSleepAndCoffee]

bebeanjo Do me and yourself a favour and read the thread.

[BertieBotts]

Lady the other function of those is to hold the belt flat against the child's thighs rather than it riding up over their soft abdominal organs. DS's car seat doesn't have "arms" as such for this, though it is a Britax HBB - I guess the high back also stops the seat from slipping out forwards.

I think they should run TV adverts which explain that in a crash any items in the car (people, dogs, luggage) will "weigh" a lot more due to the forces involved. I didn't know this - I only found out due to something at my old work about cages/harnesses for dogs travelling in cars. But once explained it's immediately obvious why you need to be strapped in even in the back, why you should secure heavy items of luggage, why it's impossible to hold on to a child in your arms and why it's dangerous to put the seatbelt around two people.

It wouldn't even have to be a gory/shocking/emotional one, just a simple scientific explanation (maybe with a cartoon?) or someone with spaghetti arms trying to hold onto an elephant in the back seat and imagining that elephant crashing into the seat in front.

[BertieBotts]

piglet didn't you have a carrier seat for the baby before they went into the evolva? Most babies can still fit into one at 1 even if they're not 100% happy about it and you say it's a short journey.

[JustFabulous]

Unless it really is life or death why would you take any risk? There aren't any special powers than mean it is known that it is the first time you have done this so an accident is forbidden to happen.

A woman in the village let one of her twins sit in the foot well to go home from the garage, only a short journey so fine. But it wasn't and the child died.

I know I am probably more pessimistic than some people due to my upbringing but I just can't understand why anyone would take an unnecessary risk with their child's life. Would you take the same risk with your own?

I have had to deal with DS1 getting himself to school and worry every day until I hear from him but there is no other option and we have put everything in place that we can to keep him safe. To use the OP story there were 2 options. One was statistically safe and the other not but would make the journey quicker, warmer, nicer. Take the safest one surely.

[pigletmania]

Bertie he has Outgrwn that so I can't do up the 5 point harnesses on it, even on the highest settings, he is th sze oif an 18 month old.

[popserinis]

The law permits no car seats to be used for short unplanned journeys.

[AnnieLobeseder]

Still baffled by the number of people who think that the law is what matters rather than safety. With your own child? Really? You know something is unsafe, even highly dangerous in the current weather conditions, but you're happy to do it anyway because there's no law against it?

[MrsKeithRichards]

Boggle no more! People are discussing the law because it was stated it would be illegal and discussion followed to the contrary.

[specialsubject]

perfectly legal with the three year old to be in the back, in their own adult seat belt:
'if the child is travelling on a short distance for reason of unexpected necessity;'. The baby must go in the car seat.

if the friend is a decent driver, and presumably won't have been going fast in these conditions, I'd have done it.

could all have been avoided with a little forward planning, the planet turns every day and it gets colder when it is dark.

[IneedAsockamnesty]

I'm not entirely sure that you wouldn't get a fine or points or what ever it is that happens when you get stopped by the police by saying

" I didnt want to wait for the bus"

[blondefriend]

Discussed this with my OH. He would have taken the lift and I would have killed him for that decision. Car accidents are the biggest killer of children between 6 months and 18 years in this country, my friend's 3 year old daughter died in a car crash, why risk it? Getting a bit chilly won't harm them. YANBU. However hot chocolate won't harm anything. :) Maybe in future he will plan a bit better. TBH if he phoned you and then decided to take the bus after all it sounds like he was feeling uncertain about it himself.

[RainbowsFriend]

This thread made me ask my DP what he would do in the situation - as I am a worrier and suffer from generalised anxiety etc, while he is pretty sensible but pragmatic.

He said - it would depend on what the car was. who the driver was, how long the journey etc, but he would probably go with the lift as long as the 3 YO looked safe without a car seat.

I was horrified at his response as I am with you on this OP and think the bus is far safer despite lack of seat belts - due to a bus' large mass should it get involved in an accident (and it's less likely to get in an accident than a car as people don't mess with large buses and take chances so much) it would come to a stop so quickly as a car as it would have much greater momentum - so the impact would be spread over time more. I also insist that we sit rear facing on buses wherever possible....

[BreastmilkDoesAFabLatte]

Sorry I was so long. It took a while for things to calm down here.

But thank you to all those who have been kind and supportive and challenging. I'm learning a lot from this thread, and I'm glad that others are too...

[BertieBotts]

Rainbows I'm not sure sitting rear facing on buses is particularly safe anyway as they tend to have short seats which would mean a big strain on the neck I'd have thought? Slow stopping speed of course would reduce this drastically anyway. You are better off sitting backwards on a train, though, because the seats have headrests.

[BertieBotts]

It can drive you mad though can't it worrying about all the relative risks :(

[RainbowsFriend]

:(

[LadyIsabellaWrotham]

Glad all is well OP.

Also asked DH what he'd have done - he gave me a five minute lecture on A level physics as it applies to car crashes ...... and would have taken the bus.

[LadyWidmerpool]

I would have taken the bus. But actually I wouldn't have got so far out of range on a day like this in the first place. Hope you can relax now OP and that you feel better soon.

[LadyMargolotta]

I hope you are ok Breastmilk.

I think there is a lot going on in your life. You are off work sick, and your dh is looking after the children - you should NOT feel guilty or bad about this. Your dh shouldn't blame you - after all he is only looking after his own children.

I don't think he should have phoned you. If he takes the children out for the day, the only reason for him to phone would be if there was a problem. He needs to take responsibility and just get on with it.

Anxiety can be a severe mental health illness, and I hope you are getting help with it. I hope that you and your dh can get this incident into proportion and move on.