To still feel guilty about ruining this little girl's evening?

[DowntonNappy]

DD (4.11) was at a Christmas party yesterday. Parents were asked to step inside for the last ten minutes to watch the kids perform some carols.

When i went inside, dd jumped up from her chair in excitement to see me. I hurriedly told her to sit back down. She went to do so, but then started crying. Apparantly the child beside her had taken her chair.

I said just sit on the other one then. But dd wasn't having it. She was adamant that was the 'wrong' chair, and the child had jumped into hers while dd had ran over to me.

While dd was crying and telling the little girl that's her chair, the teacher was trying to carry on with the carols.

The other child's mum started getting angry, telling dd that was actually her child's chair and she should sit on the other one.

Dd was still insisting the little girl should move. All the while, I'm trying to calm dd down and get her to sit on the other damn chair, as she was causing a scene. I threatened to take her outside, but this didn't work either. Just as i was about to basically drag her out, the other child starts crying. Her mum goes mad, jumps out of the audience, swoops her daughter up from the chair, and storms out, shouting "Fucking ridiculous. Forget it. Just forget it."

The poor teacher was trying to carry on as normal. She quietly called after the mum, "sorry about that."

I got dd to sit on the other chair (the 'wrong' one). I sat beside her on the one that was apparantly 'stolen' from her. She was sitting on the edge of it, clearly wanting the one i was on. But i couldn't let her have it because all the other parents were looking at me and it would have looked as if I was just pandering to her.

Anyway, carols finished. And teacher gave out presents. She called out the other child's name. Her mum must have been standing just outside the door, because she came back in for the present upon hearing her child's name, saying that her daughter's birthday (had no idea it was her birthday!) had been ruined thanks to 'that spoilt brat'.

I was completely numb at this point, mortified and felt so weak. All I could focus on was keeping dd calm as i didn't want things to escalate. Everyone was muttering in the audience and tutting.

Afterwards, everyone cleared out the hall. I stayed behind to talk to dd, and explain why she was in the wrong and must come with me to apologise. Just then the teacher came over. I burst into tears. DD was so confused, asking what's wrong.

I apologise to the teacher, explaining that dd's autism just makes her very particular/stubborn about things, and asked if she could take me and dd to the parent so we could say sorry. The teacher was lovely and gave me a big hug and said not to worry. And that she'll apolgise to the mum on my behalf, instead of me going to her myself. The mum - none of the mums - know my dd has autism, but the teacher said she'd inform the mum though (with my permission) to explain to her why dd acted the way she did.

I told dd off when we got home, but it didn't register with her at all.

Wow! Sorry for the epic novel. Basically, AIBU for still feeling so guilty? I need to grow a pair, me thinks. She's probably forgotten all about it. But my friend thinks i deserve to feel this guilty. I - well DD - effectively ruined a little girl's 6th birthday, and her Christmas party all at once.

[DoubleLifeIsALifeHalved]

Repeat after me 'I am not responsible for how other people react'! Please don't worry, you & your dd spoiled no ones birthday, & getting her a pressie seems an over reaction to me as really it wasn't a big deal til the other mother made it so!

You did your best, it's hard to handle things like this, you're not a mind reader, you didn't know how it was going to pan out, you are just a nice person trying to help your dd get through another few mins of a performance as it was nearly ended.

I think you are VVU for being so hard on yourself & should instantly give yourself a break & think no more about it!

[Entreprenizzle]

The other mother sounds nuts. I'd be more annoyed that another mother used the 'f' work in front of all those children - bonkers.

[higgyjig]

Lol @ everyone believing the other child moved chairs for no reason in the space of a few seconds.

[PickledInAPearTree]

Other mother to blame not you!

You have acted perfectly throughout.

Please don't worry!

[IneedAsockamnesty]

Some times taking the child out is not the right thing to do. In most circumstances trying to quickly resolve the issue is better for the suituation.

Saying you should take out a disabled child instantly or routinely when the disability causes an issue is a bit like saying normal folk would rather not deal with disability related issues.

Would anybody think it was ok to exclude a wheelchair user for the sake of a step or narrow doorway?

I know its not exactly the same thing but its still an issue directly as a result of a disability

YANBU

[IneedAsockamnesty]

Lol @ everyone believing the other child moved chairs for no reason in the space of a few seconds.


Ime kids do stuff like this all the time.

[PickledInAPearTree]

Op was about to take the child out when the other mother started up anyway. She was clearly dealing with it. I would be mortified if I shouted fucking this and that in a carol concert for primary kids.

She's made a total show of herself far worse than any of the kids altercations.

Op did well to not retaliate and keep calm and want to say sorry.

[whois]

Other mother behaved badly for swearing but up to that point it was six of one and half a dozen of the other.

Your DD was making a massive fuss over a chair that might or might not have been hers.
These things happen to all kids at some point.
Other child gets upset by the massive fuss which is a foreseeable consequence. Maybe she's tired. Maybe she's very sensitive. Maybe she's had a bad day. Maybe she's sick of habing to move over for so and so and feels there was injustice. Whatever. I don't see why people think the other girl had no right to be upset just cos she didn't have autism

Other mother sees her DD upset and your DD acting like a spoilt brat over a chair.

Other mother should have calmed her DD down and tried to get her to move but she flounced out and swore instead. Although from her perspective her DD was sitting there having a nice time then all of a sudden there's a massive isshoo and your DD is the cause of it.

I'd defo get telling people about you DD having a dx as hopefully
Situations like the above will be responded to with a much more understanding and kinder approach from the other parent!

[dayshiftdoris]

OP

Been here, done this - many times and whilst I agree that kids with HFA need to learn that society 'doesn't bend' to them you can hope for this to happen overnight and at the age of 4.

We are getting there - at 8yrs but no where nearly there. I would deal with it exactly as you did consider that the other mother swooped in and removed. At that point you were stuck as removing your DD would have meant that they were in the same place whilst she had the inevitable meltdown. However, removal is sometimes better to preserve the dignity of your but each and every situation is different.

Have to say this though - during my time I have come across this sort of situation MANY times. I don't stand for that sort of behaviour off my son but there has been many a time that I think he has a point!
I bet it was her chair and that child should not have jumped in it as soon as she left and it frustrates me that there are some adults who let this behaviour go... my son, who struggles is supposed to behave perfectly whilst other kid's quietly inappropriate behaviour goes unnoticed and is ignored.

Had many a situation in the team sport he plays (using the term loosely but he's there and its positive) where other children are CHEATING and he has major issues with it... we had to write a social story about waiting until half time / end of game before talking to a coach about a breach in the rules... that was after a ref sent him off for pointing out repetitively and then getting angry about a child who broke the rules - the child HAD broke the rules, he was on my son's team and the ref was our coach... he'd seen the breach in the rules but the lad had scored so he did not want to know. I took my son to task for his reaction but I had to agree that it was not fair what that boy had done

Ofcourse his response was wrong and needs changing... we haven't had an incident like that (tho plenty of opportunity for issue!) for a while thanks to the social story and a lot of support to let things go whilst acknowledging his point of view... ofcourse he goes on and on for hours about it afterwards and he is high after but no violence or meltdown... it's progress.

Please don't feel too bad... it's a rocky road this and some situations / people are doomed. You dont need to share your DD diagnosis especially to someone who has reacted like that just hang in there with head held high.

[dayshiftdoris]

*can't not can hope!

[Thumbwitch]

Floggingmolly Tue 11-Dec-12 13:10:16
The woman didn't know your dd has autism.
All the posters saying "she could have told her dd it would be kind to give up her chair to make your dd happy". Really? Would anyone who didn't understand your dd's condition really be this altruistic? Yes. I have already said in a previous post that I would have done this, although not necessarily with the "it would be kind blah blah" speech.

Do you insist your kids give up the toys they chose to play with at playgroup the second another kid demands to have a go? I have done this as well. Not necessarily the second that the other kid demands a go, but where the other child is known to me and is likely to bash DS to get the toy, then I will tell DS to let him have it rather than let him get bashed. If the other child is not a known basher, then intervention along the lines of "you have a go for a little while and then let X have it please" are the norm. I'll do it the other way as well (if X has the toy and DS wants it). DS is pretty good at sharing and I try to make sure he knows he has my support and his best interests in mind.

[Thumbwitch]

bloody bold fail. Ah well.

[sashh]

Good grief.

Yes your child acted like a spoiled brat, but because she has autism.

Surely the other mother could see your dd getting distressed and say to her child, "let OP's dd sit in your chair"?

[Loveweekends10]

I really felt for you whilst reading that. You couldn't have done anything differently so don't beat yourself up.
The other mum had her mind on one thing only and that was her dd s birthday perfection. Shame on her for taking it out on you. I just feel awful for mums when their kids get stubborn I always want to help them out somehow but you know you can't.

[differentnameforthis]

I think you should have left before it escalated. Or at the very least removed your dd from the room while you discussed it.

[girlsyearapart]

Haven't read all the answers but every one of my children has had a fit of tears/mini meltdown on their birthday.

It's all a bit overwhelming at that age. Chair incident could've tipped other girl over the edge.

My 5yo dd does not have autism & is likely to have been bothered by the 'wrong chair' as she's very particular about things.

You were obviously dealing with things & the other mum shouldn't have sworn

[Peachy]

I think some people fail to understand exactly what HFA is.

HFA means someone has the triad of impairments, had a speech delay at 3 and a normal IQ- normal is a MASSIVE range.

So, you'd get someone whose speech delay is long gone and has a high IQ: or you'd get a child like my ds3 whose speech is still significantly impaired, whose IQ is quite below average but doesn't hit the significant 65 mark for a learning disability diagnosis, and spends a large percentage of his time locked in absences and unable to comprehend his world.

After all, this is why it's a spectrum; there's no point making pronouncements about what someone with ASD SHOULD so: I have AS: my empathy levels are high (too high, was impacting on my coping ability as was unable to prioritise myself over ANYONE else): my eldest has AS: he has NO emotional empathy. In fact I am researching empathy and children on the spectrum for my MA and the range is so widely disparate it would seem that making random judgements about what any child or adult on the spectrum should or must be able to do is laughable. There are some good sites discussing the empathy imbalance hypothesis, something I subscribe to in many ways, and that is well worth a read.

Now I will go back and read the thread properly!

[Peachy]

OK now read whole thread (someone had alerted me to the HFA bit).

OP- hugs. Lots and lots of them. DS4 would do EXACTLY that with the chairs; he's not diagnosed yet but wlll be one day (the system is just dragging it's feet, everything in place including a statement application, genetics screening and awaiting ADOS). DS4 is also the same age as your DD.

The party situation is immensely hard for anyone on the spectrum, the only one we will bother attending this year is going to be held by the local children's disability centre, have given up on others. And to a 4 year old on the spectrum, absolutes are unbreakable and any perceived rule such as my chair- something after all likely to be reinforced by school- is so very important, it gives their world shape and structure. heck I am 39 and you should see me when I perceive I am even breaking a tiny rule! You'd think the world has ended, even if I can keep it hidden within and not show anyone (meds for the panic attacks help enormously tbh but only as an adult).

At 4, children are still tiny: there is a lot you can do to help her longer term such as social stories and the like but right now it's going to be a learning curve for you both. if parents cannot accept that then you MUST not take on responsibility for their emotions after the lel of explanation and apology, some people will always be difficult but most will be fine once they understand. TBh with my 3 I have found a policy of dropping the ASD into conversation has helped people understand, but I learned that the hard way and each must find their own path.

Merry Christmas X

[Peachy]

(PS ds1 is 13 now and I still wouldn't make him give up a chair in public, because I wouldn't want a beating. I work on it at home, his team of AS SN Teachers in his School Base work on it... so far we have got absolutely nowhere but we persevere. Obviously I do explain and we now reduce the chances of him being anywhere nobody will understand, but he has high levels of cognitive empathy and no emotional empathy meaning he is extremely machavelian alongside the ASD. )

[Peachy]

'Saying you should take out a disabled child instantly or routinely when the disability causes an issue is a bit like saying normal folk would rather not deal with disability related issues.'

And yes, that too.

I'd give my right arm- now, this minute, with no anaesthetic- for my 4 year old not to get so constantly distressed about every slight change of chair or rule or anything. It's heartbreaking and I could cry right now just thinking about it. Forget the violence he is developing through frustration- I can live with that- not seeing him so constantly distressed though. He maybe cried and gets upset 4 hours a day right now, often quiet crying at school so nobody sees him, he hides behind doors and sobs rather than asking for help. Just telling him or expecting him to behave better or give up a chair- goodness if only. I get freddos has a child with AS but there is such a wide disparity of traits- not one of my asd children (and ds4 is really quite obviously going to be diagnosed one day) is anything like the other. It's both the strength and weakness of the spectrum.

[DowntonNappy]

Thanks very much, everyone, for replying/sharing your experiences.

DD has been diagnosed for over a year now, but I'm still coming to terms with it all, and still learning. I didn't take her out of the room because she's been looking forward to the party for weeks, she loves singing, and there was only 5-10 minutes left to go. I didn't want her missing out because of a chair-related misunderstanding. Again, I couldn't forsee the little girl crying as i was focussed on my own dd.

I thought that so long as i could stand next to her, I'd be able to calm her down. But i saw that wasn't working, she was becoming a bit louder so i was going to remove her, but then the other girl started crying and got taken away by her mum.

DD seriously lacks empathy. She couldn't see that she was in the wrong. So i said afterwards, 'fair enough, but it was the little girl's birthday, so it would be nice if the birthday girl got a turn of the chair.'

Yesterday, while playing with her dolls, she reenacted the scenario (carol service, chairs etc), and i was pleased to see her with doll A telling doll B 'okay, you can have the chair because you're the birthday girl', so obviously something's registered. yey!

We have been given a bunch of social stories from her SALT to help school scenarios such as 'waiting my turn', 'listening for my name' etc. I'd never even thought of writing my own for her. Thanks for the suggestion.

[DowntonNappy]

I'm the same, Peachy. Constantly worrying about her. She just doesn't know how to cope with certain things, so instead she'll cry. Yesterday her teacher told me there had been tears in class because one of the older children had fastened her coat up 'wrongly'. They did all the buttons up whereas dd likes the top and bottom one left open.

I'm a nervous wreck whenever she's out of my sight as i sort of feel like her interpreter, if that makes sense. I'm the middle man that can most of the time prevent her tears, and help her understand things before they upset her.

[ChippingInAWinterWonderland]

It is sad how little understanding and/or empathy some people have. I think it's even more upsetting when it's someone who has a child on the spectrum.

I haven't seen you around for a while Peachy. I hope you all have a good Christmas with as little stress as possible x

[iamapushymum]

''Saying you should take out a disabled child instantly or routinely when the disability causes an issue is a bit like saying normal folk would rather not deal with disability related issues.'

well it depends.what about, in this situation, the other little girl who was upset? doesn't she have the right to be not upset?

[OutragedAtThePriceOfFreddos]

Chipping, what makes you think I have no understanding or empathy just because I have more of it for the little girl who was made to cry and the parent who was expecting to see her child in a lovely concert on her birthday than I do for the OP?

Peachy, of course the spectrum is huge and wide and massively varied, that's why I had to laugh to myself when I got told that I clearly have no understanding of autism by other people! I'm no expert on autism, I just know the particular ways it affects the people I know who have it.

I made my comment about children who are high functioning having to learn to do things they don't always understand because that's what society dictates because I believe it to be true in many many cases. If the OP has a choice over whether she tells people her child is autistic, then it won't be something that is immediately obvious. That means that as she grows older, she will need to behave in a way that other people relate to for her own benefit.

I get that it's difficult, and I get that it takes years for some children to learn this. But in the meantime, I personally didn't want my child being ostracised or treated differently by his peers because he was treated differently by adults. It's a very complicated thing, but as a parent of an NT child too, I don't think it's ok for any child to be upset because of the upsetting actions of another child, ASD or not.