to use a disabled toilet if I've got the buggy?

[MrsHelsBels74]

Pretty much as the thread title says, if you're out in public & need to loo but can't fit the buggy into a normal cubicle is it acceptable to take the buggy into the disabled toilet? I'd never use a disabled parking space but did this today in desperation. So, is it ok or still a no-no?

[ceeveebee]

Freebuttonbee I have twins, live in SW London, use buses and trains and have never had any problems - I avoid rush hours and can count on one hand the number of times I have had to wait for another bus due to buggy space being full. If you get the narrowest pram you can then it fits easily with another single. Or you could use a sling+single.
I would get off the bus rather than try to fold if a wheelchair user needed the space.
Toilet wise - I am lucky to have a bladder of steel and rarely need to go outside the house. Also am usually with a friend/DH or at a group so no need to leave unattended. If I did need to go I push buggy to cubicle door and leave it slightly open.
Join TAMBA and find your local twin club, you'll get lots of support and advice from there as well as multiple birth board on mumsnet. Believe me you'll find ways to cope with it all.

[ceeveebee]

Sorry, not buggy space, wheelchair space - of course it's only for buggies if not needed by a wheelchair user

[MainlyMaynie]

'Ask someone to help you. Use words.'

TheNebulousBoojum Thanks for your sympathetic attitude. Not sure why you're so fucking sceptical when I said the situation had never arisen and if it did I would get off the bus. TBH I have only a basic knowledge of the local language and for fear of many I would not bother attempting to use it to explain my physical problems.

[TheNebulousBoojum]

Sceptical? No, just that if you can't fold up the buggy due to bad planning, then you should someone else to help you rather than occupying a wheelchair space or expecting other people to understand what the problem is.
No need to go into your medical history, who would care? Just ask for assistance.
I have no idea where you live, or what language it is that you can't communicate in.

[MainlyMaynie]

My point was I wouldn't occupy a wheelchair place, I would get off the bus. Seems like a perfectly reasonable solution to me.

I love the idea that SPD is bad planning. Some people are in wheelchairs with SPD. I spent a good while on crutches with it.

[TheNebulousBoojum]

SDP isn't bad planning, how is that something you can forsee?
Having a buggy that you can't use easily, or fold without assistance is bad planning. I had a cheap buggy that I could fold one-handed as well as the main one because we used public transport a lot and I was managing a baby and a backpack as well.
I'm surprised that you are having language difficulties in Holland, I've always found it one of the easiest places to get around.

[MainlyMaynie]

Glad you find Dutch so easy to learn! It's not good MN etiquette to use advanced search like that BTW.

The pushchair was bad planning. I chose it before DS was born because it was nice and small for public transport and supposedly v easy to fold. It never occurred to me that I'd still be having problems. It's my problem though, not other people's and I don't let it impact on others. I was merely trying to point out that the world is not black and white and hidden disabilities can exist in people pushing buggies. Fortunately I find the real life world tends to be much more open to this idea than AIBU.

[TheNebulousBoojum]

I was curious, I've lived and visited a lot of countries and have found a lot of people willing to be helpful if I communicated that I needed support.
I've also never understood why on MN it seems so impossible for posters to understand that a facility for the disabled; parking, toilets, blue badges etc is exactly that. Why are there regular threads asking if it is OK to use them because they are more convenient? To grumble about folding a buggy if you are occupying a wheelchair space?
I've been around MN for ages, and these threads pop up regularly. Why?

[TheNebulousBoojum]

I found Dutch easier to read than speak, but I've never met a Netherlander who didn't speak at least one other language than Dutch. Often English or French.

[MainlyMaynie]

I have never used a dedicated disabled toilet because I have a buggy. I have never objected to disabled people having priority on buses (the spaces are labelled as for use by pushchairs unless a wheelchair user needs them, so there is no issue with just using them). I have no idea why there are so many threads about it. I'd guess mostly because people want to do the right thing but aren't always quite sure what that is.

My spoken Dutch is probably about good GCSE level now, but I would probably still have difficulty explaining to someone how to fold/unfold the bastard pushchair.

Anyway, I'm off to namechange, having realised how identifiable I am on advanced search.

[Marzipanface]

If there is no one waiting I would, however I do have a hidden disability that affects my mobility and bladder and have had to put up with rude comments from individuals with disabilities about me being able bodied and so on.

[OliviaMumsnet]

just popping in to post a quick link to our talk guidelines
Thanks

[DoubleLifeIsALifeHalved]

Another bun fight, always the same on disabled threads :(

Can't people agree on consideration & mutual respect???

Why must it be fighting for your own rights above other peoples? And this constant judging of who needs consideration & what counts as being in need is ridiculous surely?

These threads make me feel so discouraged. Being disabled, or having a disabled child is so so hard, harder than most people can imagine, & then having people deciding its somehow unfair for them to get any special consideration at all... Well, it's really sad.

And btw, I don't mean stop using disabled toilets if you need to, or putting your buggy in the disabled space if you need to, or that people with spd can't get help & consideration too... I just mean be considerate, be kind, and please, stop being so sodding cruel to people who's lives are really tough every minute of the day.

[NeedabreaknotabloodyKitKat]

Ok, can I throw this one out to the MN jury:

We have twins and were travelling by train. We sussed out which carriage had the wheelchair bays, and when we got on there was one man in a wheelchair on one side with his companion, and the other side was empty. We put our double buggy in it, and sat down. After a while one DT fell asleep in the buggy and one was getting fractious, so DH had them on his lap.
At the last stop before the fast route into town, another wheelchair user started to get on, so we jumped up, gathered our bits as quick as we could, and moved out into the corridor so the chair could fit past us. The man using it said 'thank you'. No problem.
It was a busy train, and he was travelling with a group of (I think) 2 other adults and 3 other older children - some might've been teens/young adults, hard to tell, but no littlies. There wasn't room for them all to sit together, so they split up, with 3 sitting in all the remaining seats facing the wheelchair bays, while 2 went to another carriage.
I stood jiggling the buggy with sleeping DT in the corridor (fine), but DH was left trying to stand holding a wriggling 1yo, which was getting a bit dangerous as the train bounced around. Eventually another space came free at the far end of the carriage, and he managed to squish in there.

So do you think the travelling companions of the second wheelchair user should've:
a) all sat down because they were travelling with a wheelchair user?
b) all sat down because some were teens or pre-teens (I'm presuming one was the wheelchair user's adult companion)?
c) one of them should've stood to let us sit whilst holding one baby?

[TheNebulousBoojum]

I'd have asked one of the able-bodied lot if I could sit down with the baby.

[TheNebulousBoojum]

A pain to have to ask, but both my teens and I would have stood and let you sit without asking. Some people need a prod.

[mymatemax]

ffs, its not about disabled verses the rest of the world 9although it feels like that soemtimes)
Its about consideration for otheres, prioritising others needs over your own.

Walk a day in a disabled persons shoes & then see just how flimsy & selfish your reasons for needing that big loo/bus space/seat/parking space seem.

How about counting your lucky stars that you CAN manage to live your life without needing all of the above & save these few adaptations for those that really need them
C'mon just be nice!

[TheNebulousBoojum]

DS has an invisible disability, and he doesn't need any of these facilities to cope, so there's no agenda or self-interest for me. I dislike unreasonable behaviour and those with a massive sense of entitlement. I suppose that's why I get annoyed.

He did have no traffic sense and was a runner when younger, but I had a sturdy pair of reins, then a wrist strap, then I had off-road boots, could run fast and a whistle that he was programmed to stop for.
Car parking would have been useful I suppose, but we didn't have a car until he was 4. Toilets were a PITA when he was older but lacked social skills, especially at the London stations, but we planned ahead. He is fond of rules and manners, and is given to reminding people about parking rules and blue badge rules and no smoking areas.
But we've been very lucky, not to need so many of the few facilities available to the disabled. Friends have it so much harder on an hourly basis, so why make life even harder for them?

[OliviaMumsnet]

@DoubleLifeIsALifeHalved

Another bun fight,

Can't people agree on consideration & mutual respect???

Or as I like to put it, Peace and love people.*

[TheNebulousBoojum]

Which guideline are we breaking here, Olivia?

[ZebraOwl]

Sirzy
It is a mare. Loads of places still don't really comply with the law in terms of access. Then, even if you CAN get into somewhere you're faced with trying to navigate your way through tiny spaces, have people simply wheel you out of their way (yes, really) & then struggle to pay because there's no low counter. (Mind you, if you're with someone then half the time they will be expected to make the transaction for you because we all know people in wheelchairs can't do things like that...)

Nailak
Er, no, very often they can't. They can't squeeze onto another bus in the way you might be able to with a pram, so they could be waiting a VERY long time until people were willing to clear out of the place. Even people who've got ulta-lightweight chairs struggle with steep hills. Even with my chair & I have a combined weight of about 60kg it's hard going for whoever's trundling me about to do hills. Very few taxis are accessible to wheelchair users. Also, there's a fairly high chance of a wheelchair user being on a limited income, so a taxi would be a luxury they just couldn't afford.

Chanatan
It's astonishing, isn't it! I once got screamed at by a woman in Boots for being a "selfish little bitch" because I asked her to let me come past. She was right up in my face hurling abuse at me & no-one, staff or customer, did anything about it. I was - for once - on my own as a friend had dropped me at the station & I was being met at the other end. I find it particularly bad that no-one did anything because I look so much younger than I am - generally people think I am in my mid-teens, especially if I'm using the chair. I ended up dissolving into tears when I got on the train & even then only one person asked if I was okay.

MonthlyAFIWish
How incredibly frustrating. Rawrgh. I'd've been spitting feathers had it been me.

FamiliesShareGerms
I went to Prague as part of Girlguiding UK's Centenary Celebrations. Our guided tour route included a ginormous flight of steps. I was carried down them in my chair by 3 Guiders. That was when I had a clunky beast of a chair so I still don't know how they managed it even though I was very underweight at the time! Mostly, though, you can't do that with people in wheelchairs. Even though I do get a surprising amount of offers to be carried places when there's access fail & have, more than once, had to be lifted off trains because the ramp has, yet again, failed to transpire. I also once had to get a well-over-6-foot-tall-rugby-player who'd broken his leg & was thus in a wheelchair off the tube because the ramp hadn't shown up. No-one offered to help, just watched me attempt not to break him a bit more as I bumped him down. Managed not to break him, but did part-dislocate both my shoulders

FreeButtonBee
Have you enough time to do some research into facilities in your local area, quieter travel routes/times etc? I've a mental map of places with decent wheelchair access & facilities for places I go quite regularly. Not that I can go out alone in my chair, because although it is "lightweight" that = 15kg & too much for my arm joints to cope with But it is definitely useful to have an idea of where I will be able to stop for a wee/get something to drink without having to rearrange a whole café etc. There might be a Multiples!Group near you who could help?

MainlyMaynie (hoping to catch you before namechange!)
Could you get someone to write you the correct Dutch for what you need to convey so you could just give someone a card to explain? I've done translations for various people for various things - like sorting out the French phrases my friend with terminal cancer & severe epilepsy would need in an emergency - and while you might feel a wee bit embarrassed to use it I'm sure people would be fine about it. If you've the Dutch for "excuse me, could you help me with my buggy please?" the card could do the rest.

[Sirzy]

I don't know why store planners don't try to manoeuvre around the store in a wheelchair to see how easy it is (or in most cases isn't)

Surely it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that squashed aisles with lots of baskets of extras and whatever in are going to make life very difficult for people? I appreciate they need to display stock but less stock and more space surely isn't hard to achieve?

[NeedabreaknotabloodyKitKat]

Sirzy I heartily agree about shop displays

(In a show of peace-and-love-solidarity not 'I have a buggy therefore I presume to know what it's like in a wheelchair', before anyone jumps down my throat)

Our double has a similar footprint to most wheelchairs, and whilst I can just squeeze it round most shops, I may have punted a poorly placed stack of Christmas wrapping paper across the supermarket the other day as I just got fed up of the slalom.

[MsElleTow]

Olivia can you please tell me which talk guideline I broke, and why I was deleted when my post read " (poster's name) your ignorance is astounding!"

[FamiliesShareGerms]

Sirzy, you're right it would make sense to make aisles big enough to manoeuvre properly. I guess that they want as much square footage as possible displaying stuff for us to buy. Boycott shops that get this really wrong or bend the manager's ear