To say if you don't want to bf then fine but don't lie that you can't

[Lily1986]

A friend is ff her baby son. She tried to bf but gave up after a few days. Privately she told me that she didn't like having to bf and wanted her dh to share the load. To everyone else she is saying that she didn't produce enough milk and is seeking sympathy from others that her body wasn't able to provide for her baby. Really laying it on thick.

I really don't have a problem with how anyone chooses to feed their baby.

AIBU to feel angry at this friend trying to make people feel sorry for her?

[FlangelinaBallerina]

Edma I'm not sure that the high percentage of ff is because of marketing. The fact is that ff offers many advantages that bf doesn't, and this is as indisputable as the health advantages of bf. Obviously not everyone considers the ff advantages to be relevant to them or to outweigh the health advantages of bf, but plenty do. Inevitably when you have an adequate alternative that doesn't involve pain, most people can afford, allows the responsibility of feeding to be shared without having to wait to master pumping and allows the mother the freedom to leave the baby for lengthier periods if she likes, some women are going to choose it. Others won't, but lots will. Indeed, there have always been women who opted not to bf even before the advent of an adequate alternative and modern advertising.

And the people being called BF militants and nazis are really not the people who simply say bf is better for babies- and I say this as someone who has issues with the term bf nazi. It's the people who are so stupid and blinkered that they eg compare ff to drug taking.

[Edma]

Unfortunately I disagree Ballerina. I really do think marketing is the main reason.

I really recommend this book. It opened my eyes.
And I am not one for conspiracy theories!

[YerMaw1989]

IME its seen as 'easier' I have just come off a labour ward, I have to top up with formula every feed and I'm getting some stick for it.

I was the only person on my ward bf in any way shape or form and the ages/class etc varied hugely on there.

[Moominsarescary]

I don't agree with the marketing either, even when they advertise 6m formula they make the statement breast is best

[Edma]

The reality of it is that many women have never seen any other woman BF. Not on TV, not in any film, not around them.
When they are pregnant they get bombarded with the message that breast is best but it is not anchored in real life for them as until then, all they have seen are babies being BF.
Marketing is more subtle than just advertising on TV and magazines.

I see many mums and newborns through my work (not medical) and the vast vast majority of babies are FF. So yes the industry has won.

[OliviaMumsnet]

Happy Sunday all
Just want to say that we're aware this is a v divisive topic and twas ever so, but please do stick to our guidelines
Thanks

[Edma]

Is it me? Did I say something wrong? I just went through the guidelines and I can't see what it could be

[Edma]

Please someone enlighten me as I am very puzzled.

[FlangelinaBallerina]

Well Edma, the fact is that women have long sought out alternatives to bfing their own children. The wet nurse has been found in many cultures for a long time. How does your hypothesis take account of this fact? Women who did this before the twentieth century or so clearly couldn't have been influenced by advertising, and women who did it before ff existed couldn't have been influenced by ff. Both of those things would be impossibilities. As such, the theory you put forward needs to explain those two things. It also needs to explain those of us who saw lots of bf when we grew up and were raised with bf as the norm, who had access to bf experienced female relatives for support and who still chose to stop bf because we absolutely hated it.

The unfortunate and unpalatable truth is that we could have all the advertising bans and bf education we wanted, but some women would still choose ff because for them, the disadvantages would be minor compared with the advantages. And this is not an illogical position. Most women have ample pain and exhaustion during labour, so it is perfectly sensible not to want to volunteer for more when it can be avoided with an adequate feeding alternative. Which ff is. I say this as someone who supports a woman's right to bf if she wants, for as long as she wants, whenever she wants.

I assume we would all agree that the majority of mothers do at least some ff- although most women actually use both bf and ff, the difference being in how much they do of each and when. You may well be able to personally attest to this, but that doesn't mean you are able to provide a simple generalised explanation as to why this happens. Actually I don't think there is one tbh, there's probably a different set of reasons and circumstances behind every woman's decision as to how to feed her baby.

[Edma]

Yes I totally agree Ballerina, some women would always chose FF and that's completely fine and to be protected. I am a proponent of BF but I would always support a mother's decision to pick formula, for whatever reason.
But I really don't think that both methods are on an equal level, because of the industry's lobbying and the lack of proper education (which should start way before pregnancy).
As to a benefits/drawbacks assesment, again it's for each woman to decide, if she has been given the means to make an informed choice, and my point is that most women have not.

[Calmisthemantra]

I haven't read the whole thread but felt I needed to comment. I was excited about bf and all seemed to be going well with my baby until the 10 day weigh in and to be told she'd lost 15% of her birth weight and carted off to hospital. I was (and still am) distraught that I couldn't provide enough for my baby. I did everything I could to try and increase my supply including :
Expressing between feeds, long baby moons in bed with skin to skin, feeding on demand, fenugreek, Domperidone, bf cousellers, lactation consultants, bf clinics all with no success. I have had no surgery or on any medication that could hinder bf but was told by specialists that I did in fact not have enough milk! And they suspected that dd had a 'lazy suck' I persevered for 9 weeks where i was either feeding or expressing and became a hermit I feel a great sadness at not being able to feed my baby myself and 9 months on I am now having counselling as I feel it led to my pnd.

Everyone of course makes their own choices that are best for them and their babies but I WANTED to breastfeed and felt it was taken away from me. I was incredibly jealous of friends that seemed to bf so easily and I would die a bit inside any time I had to give dd a bottle in public or someone new. I felt judged by them, even though rationally I knew they wouldn't give 2 hoots. I do feel that I have failed - dd is a very bright and healthy 9month old but I still feel that I've let her down.

I am now pg with dc2 and already worrying about 'failing' again with this baby. I don't necessarily think there is any right or wrong as everyone makes their own choices/decisions, but I am gutted that my choice was taken away from me!

[CecilyP]

Edma, the artificial feeding of infants predates the marketing of formula by many of years. In earlier times, it was just diluted cows milk with an added spoon of sugar. I believe Mrs Beaton had several recipes. Sometimes parents also used sweetened condensed milk with tragic reslults. So much so, that manufactures were legally obliged to have large notices on their labels saying 'unfit for babies' on their labels. During WW2, the government issued something called National Dried which was fortified and an improvement on on previous offerings. There were also commercial companies such as Ostermilk and Cow and Gate that produced formula, though I doubt if their marketing was particularly aggressive at that time. Is anyone else here old enough to remember when Carnation Milk had infant feeding instructions on the label?

[Tailtwister]

I'm sure DH was given Carnation milk and he was born in 1973, so not that long ago. There must have been formula available then too, because that's how my brother and I were fed and we're older than DH.

I don't know what the answer is really. There are so many other things which impact our children's well being (diet, education etc), but they don't seem to be so loaded with guilt. It's a real shame, because we are so vulnerable in the early days and to have those precious weeks and months spoilt by guilt is very sad.

[Tailtwister]

By 'diet' I mean solid foods.

[CecilyP]

Yes there was formula then, National Dried, Cow and Gate and Ostermilk. SMA came in in about the mid-60s and was extensively advertised. In the mid 70's the earlier formulas were found to be less suitable for babies and were withdrawn from sale, while SMA continued and other manufacturers started to produce formula modified in the same way. Carnation still has something like, 'not suitable for regular infant feeding' on its label, which suggests OK to use now and again.

[digerd]

Some people tell lies for whatever reason. She could be lying to OP about the reason, or not, But she is telling another story to everyone else, she is deceiving either OP or the others.

[cory]

digerd Sun 25-Nov-12 17:26:47
"Some people tell lies for whatever reason. She could be lying to OP about the reason, or not, But she is telling another story to everyone else, she is deceiving either OP or the others. "

Not necessarily. She could be veering between different explanations because she doesn't really know which the true one is or there might be an element of both and it's about which one she is stressing at any one minute.

[Edma]

Yes formula predates the mass-marketing campaigns but it has taken it to a universal scale which was not known before.
Not just TV advertising, but also the ante-natal campaigns, the advertising, gifts, conferences for the midwives and HVs, the freebies for new mums, the pseudo-science etc...

[CecilyP]

Yes, but formula feeding was already very popular in the mid-60s. Do hospitals still routinely give women big tablets to help their milk supply dry up? Because they did then.

[lovebunny]

i haven't read the guidelines and would be unlikely to stick to them.

there should be a lot more good advice and significant support for breastfeeding.

[Moominsarescary]

You can still get tablets apparently but I've never been offered them.

[FlangelinaBallerina]

Hmm Edma I'm glad to see you're not a bf extremist, but you have yet to convince me that you're qualified to comment on whether most women are able to make an informed choice or not. I simply don't accept that you (or anyone else) could have sufficient information to make that call. You may well have met some women who weren't. That isn't sufficient information to decide that the same is true of most women.

This, unfortunately, is the problem with a lot of pro bf arguments. At their core is the idea that the decision to ff is one that is of less value than to bf, and that if only women were given the right education they'd decide differently. But you see, it wasn't advertising that gave me a lifelong aversion to having my nipples touched. Education is not going to make it easier for women to cope with the horrific sleep deprivation that you can only really understand if you've had several sleepness nights of labour followed by a baby who wants to feed every 45 minutes. You can teach women that it's normal and won't last forever, but you can't protect them from the negative health effects of sleep deprivation. Big Pharma and it's evil tentacles is not responsible for the fact that even toothless gums can shred a nipple. These things are all Mother Nature's fault, the bitch. And education about the undoubted health benefits of bf may well lead women to conclude that they are not especially significant in a Western context for most people (obviously this may be different if eg you have a family history of ear infections or your mum had breast cancer). so be careful what you wish for!

[carocaro]

Why does it bother you so much? Really, why? OP I would really like you to answer the question.

Why are people so obsessed with sticking their noses in to other peoples business and be so judgemental about decisions they have made. Reality check - it has nothing to do with you whatsoever, nothing at all. People can make their own decisions on all sorts of subjects and as long as it does not harm you or anyone else, it is none of your business.

The world would be a better and nicer place if people just got on with themselves instead of being so judgemental.

[exoticfruits]

Exactly carocaro-I can't see why it bothers anyone.

[Edma]

Ballerina I am sorry you have a phobia (I also have one although very different so I can understand) and although BF is not always a walk in the park, you certainly have a horrific vision of it!

As far as value, even formula company advertise that Breast is best, so this, I would have thought, is not debatable!
And regarding education, Scandinavian countries could teach us a thing or two.

I will leave it here as I find it tiresome to have to walk on eggshells just to have to state the obvious:
Breast is best.
The formula company spend hundred of thousands in clever multi-platform marketing campaigns (I work in the marketing industry).