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AIBU?

To complain (and share with MN) about Zenith Windows rude, sexist and crap service?

213 replies

PumpkinJack · 25/10/2012 19:48

Zenith windows door to door salesperson knocked on our door about 4 weeks ago. Like a fool I said we were considering new windows and would like a quote. He pressured me to have one that day or at the weekend but I insisted on the following week. An appointment was made, he wrote it down, I diarised it etc.

The day arrives, Zenith phone me about 2 hours prior to the appointment to confirm they'd see DH and me later. I mentioned it would just be me. They cancelled!! On that basis! Said they'd ring to rearrange a time to see DH too, despite me saying we only want a quote.

Equally incredibly I then heard nothing more. Tonight someone from their company phoned to say I was down as a 'missed 'appointment' and would I like to re-book. Wtaf? I briefly (not like this) said no, not interested as the service had been... Brrrrrrrrr

She hung up! Shall I complain? What for, a written apology? Or save my energy? Fuckers.

OP posts:
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StrangeLookingParasite · 27/05/2016 21:57

Mildly amusing watching mrod1206 try to defend the indefensible. And on a zombie thread, to boot!

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mrod1206 · 28/05/2016 07:53

@SLP -

Really?

Firstly it was not a zombie thread... the post in January is probably why this topic appeared in a Google search, and as I stated I did not notice the original posting date. This is Internet, and if content is available a search will find it.

As for defending the indefensible, as PirateSmile pointed out sometimes needs must and I took the job exactly for that reason. I soon found out that I didn't like the methods used and simply started during my own thing, then I started my business and help people to avoid much of the hassle... they can complete a form on my website, I'll call them to see how many quotes they want and at what times, I contact the companies to arrange the quotes and inform them to cut the BS and just give the best price. I also inform the potential customer of the sales techniques, and how to play the 'game' to their advantage, an example of which I posted in my previous posts (e.g. print out the GGF code of practice and state you'll buy if it was a certain price), plus I follow up to see how things went and advise people where to complain if there has been a problem, and if needed I inform the company that their agent/salesman has gone against the regulations that are in place.

So I am not defending the indefensible, there is actually nothing to defend. The majority of problems come because people allow themselves to be manipulated in their own home, e.g. not telling the agent they don't want a quote, not telling the salesman to leave when they want them to, not saying they want a better price etc... but even worse they do not make the relevant complaints... this is where it goes wrong... the companies have to abide to the codes of practice but sometimes individuals choose not to, if people don't make the complaints the company doesn't know what individuals are doing, if people do make the complaints the companies have to address them and can deal with what those individuals are doing.

So, in reality it is individuals that give the companies at bad name and this escalates because people accept it as a bad experience rather than making the necessary complaints. I stated earlier that I no longer use one of the major companies, this is because their director was the problem and that filtered down throughout the company.

Unfortunately, the home improvement industry does require companies to visit potential customers before a deal can go through (e.g to measure up so the windows are the correct size), this is unavoidable, but it is how best parties act that set the way things go... when you work on commission you need deals to go through to earn your money, this can make people quite forceful so potential customers need to be more forceful in return... if this happens there should be no problems.

So SLP, if anything is mildly amazing it is people's lack of defending themselves against the known sales techniques of these companies. If you allow any home improvement company into your home remember it should be on your terms, not thiers.

Of course, this thread was originally about Zenith and I've seen stuff posted like 'don't let them in to your home' or 'they were a nightmare'. One thing for sure... those who went into the home and made it a nightmare were going against Zenith's guidelines and Zenith should have been informed so it couldn't happen again to someone else. That doesn't happen and you end up with post topics like this one... to answer the original poster's question... YES, you should have complained because I'm sure the problem would have been addressed and this post topic would never have been created.

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PirateSmile · 28/05/2016 11:09

The way in which these companies wriggle out of their responsibilities as far as the sales tactics are concerned is that they don't directly employ anybody. So, they train them to use these weird tactics then point to the fact the salesmen are self employed when the shit hits the fan. I dread to think how many elderly and vulnerable people have been exploited over the years.

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mrod1206 · 29/05/2016 12:48

@PirateSmile -

Agreed - all staff are commission based and get trained to the 'company way' which basically consists of this:

  1. Break the ice
  2. Introduce the company
  3. Discuss requirements
  4. Measure up
  5. Discuss designs
  6. Discuss the finance options (using assumptive cost)
  7. Give the full price (this is the actual quote)
  8. Work out discounted price (based on 'current' offers)
  9. Ask if you want to go ahead...
    If YES - complete paperwork, then call manager to confirm the deal and arrange surveyors etc... The salesman then gets his full commission!!
    If NO - call their manager who will be told now things stand before asking to talk to the customer and then offering a lower price. If lower price is accepted paperwork is then completed, surveyors arranged etc... with the salesman getting much less commission.
  10. If sale is made there will be pleasant discussion to keep things good before the salesman leaves, if no sale is made then it is either make arrangements for a 'follow-up' then leave (if salesman thinks you may go ahead later), or simply leave (if salesman thinks things are going nowhere).
  11. If no deal is done then later in the day (or next morning) the office will call to see why you didn't purchase, and if you are considering purchase (if you decide to go ahead either the original salesman or a manager or a different salesman will visit to complete the paperwork).

    The problems that arise are generally from 9) onwards... the salesman obviously wants full commission but you want the best price. Whatever the 'full price' is you can get a good discount through the salesman (to the point where he still gets 100% of his commission rate) but you generally get 50% off the full price with the salesman's call to the manager, but he knows that this call will cost him a lot of commission. A decent salesman will accept that he didn't quite get the job done, but unfortunately not all are decent.

    If you are considering purchase... tell the salesman you would go ahead if the price was £x but bear in mind if you go under 50% of the full price you will reach the point where profit margins for the company are very low or they could lose money if they went ahead.

    Additionally, if you require more time to think about the purchase, ensure you get the salesman's phone number and tell him you will call him if you wish to go ahead or for him to call you on a set day. When the company calls to 'follow-up' simply say you are not interested, you then have time to think and you can call the salesman when you are ready or decide by the time he calls you.

    I also dread to think how many people have been exploited over the years (not just the elderly and vulnerable) but recent regulations have changed things to stop most of this happening now. Elderly and vulnerable people should not even be pitched for a sale (however if a visit is agreed via a phone call the company may not be fully aware of the situation, and it becomes the salesman decision). Other people simply need to know what to expect and 'fight' against the techniques by being abrupt (e.g. telling the salesman you already know about the company and the price you would pay (after quote)). Knowing how to 'play' them will save you time and money, remember the salesman is being nice in hope of getting full commission, don't fall for the niceness, just get the best price.

    Finally... Never agreed to an appointment unless you are ready to have the work done, the quote they leave will always be the 'full price' so if you ain't ready to go you'll need more money later or have to go through the appointment procedure with another company when you are ready.
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GiddyOnZackHunt · 29/05/2016 13:32

But why all the game playing and brinksmanship? Most customers want a sensible price given quickly and then make an informed decision. I certainly don't wish to haggle over a five figure sum as if the windows were a pair of sandles in a souk.

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kennard93 · 30/05/2016 01:08

hi I saw your post through google and I just wanted to say I am a former employee of zenith and im happy to answer any questions you have, just drop me an email to [email protected]

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kirinm · 30/05/2016 11:15

Why on earth should a potential customer have to 'defend' themselves against a aggressive sales techniques?! Hmm

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mrod1206 · 30/05/2016 18:29

@kirinm -
'Aggressive' is the wrong word really, the companies want potential customers to buy on the day for various reasons including area targeting (maybe a week in one area), staff assignment (the rep visiting usually sits 3 appointments a day, so a return visit may cause disruption to the routine) and of course they do consider the rep has double the expenses if they need to return.

On that basis I say the word is actually 'persuasive' with the rep's aim to give you all the details in one hit and get the deal done. Hence the routine!! But as homeowners there is nothing stopping you telling the rep that you know all about the company (that cuts about 15 mins of the appointment out) and that you want a good price without all the BS. If I was still a rep I would see that as a good indication that you wanted to buy, and say goodbye to the normal routine to meet your requests.

The true 'high pressure' seems to come from 'old school' reps who mastered their techniques before the regulations changed and 'newbies' who are still answering to their managers because they haven't found their 'style' yet. Most of the other reps will adjust to your way of thinking and understand your point of view.

So when I say 'defend' I mean that you need to stand your ground, because the reps are trained to control the situation, however decent reps will tone that down if you give some back.

Think about this... the rep comes to your house and you offer him a drink. Why? - Because it's expected? Because you feel obliged? The training tells them never to refuse a drink. Why? - Because they want the drink? Because it's polite to accept? OR is it because it keeps them sitting on the sofa longer to give more time to sell to you?

Think about this too... the rep sees something in your home (maybe a football shirt you're wearing or a picture/painting) and starts talking about it. Why? Because it's part of the training to look for something to talk about to get you on the same level as them.

So, what happens when no drink is offered and you state that you don't want to chat, you just want the price? You are keeping control, and bringing them to the same level as you. That is an example of 'fighting' against their routine or winning the 'game'... and let's be honest, most people will have a figure in their head for the cost of the work they want doing, and it doesn't take a crap load of BS to reach that figure, you know you will good ahead if the product is right for the price you have, so tell the rep to cut the BS and quote the best price... if it matches your figure, then surely it's a deal.... it is that simple.

Remember... if you let people walk all over you, they will take advantage... don't let them walk and they can't!!

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itsbetterthanabox · 30/05/2016 21:53

Weird zombie thread.
I used to work for 2 different big double glazing companies.
They really are awful. Staff are treated appallingly and often work unpaid. They prey on young people and recent immigrants who won't join a union and challenge the way they treat staff.

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PirateSmile · 31/05/2016 10:26

I still want to know why double glazing companies don't just measure up, then give their best, fairest quote Confused

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Vascillious · 03/06/2016 15:55

Having both partners present follows simple reasoning:

Leaving quotes would fail to be cost effective very quickly if agents left brochures with people in their homes on every visit, it would also add to the price of the product, so why do it?

Having both people in the partnership makes simple sense. Since it's a partnership it doesn't make sense to involve only half of the people required to make a decision.

One person cannot possibly learn all their is to know about the installation, they also won't remember most of what the agent tells them.

It is also true that absent partners tend to mistrust representatives absent while they're away, even if they have done everything to first class standards first time.

As well as that it is expensive to have an agent discuss a home improvement which it would be foolhardy to spend only ten minutes considering. You need an hour at least to ensure everything you need to is covered.

To have an agent have to double up their visits to see two partners, only to have the second one try to wear down the first with their often unwarranted suspicions if they arrive after their partner has been seen alone is depressing and ineffective for all concerned. Especially given the simple fact that one partner has been excluded from the beginning.

Therefore, it only truly makes sense to have the discussion together as a family right from the beginning.

Given that it isn't usually feasible to provide a genuine quote for a premium product for which there are very many options and styles to choose from, is is truthfully impractical to visit just one partner alone because by nature it will be a waste of time to do so.

There's nothing devious about it.

Putting out those quotes is how that agent makes their living just as you make a living doing whatever you do. So, if he's spending his days giving free quotes to people with no intention to do anything except take the quote and then bin it they are wasting their time.

So there is no point in making that appointment unless there is actually some chance of making a sale, is there?

There is nothing devious about it at all.

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Vascillious · 03/06/2016 16:09

Just to respond the various "BS" accusations.

Reps are duty bound, by law, not to lie or deceive you.

A well trained rep won't give you any BS.

Reps are invited to accept to drinks but because it often offends customers to decline and there are some cultures in which it is an insult to decline routine hospitality.

"Would like some of my grandmothers simnel cake?"
"Nah, no thanks".

It doesn't exactly get off to a warm, stat does it?

Ice breaking is to put you at ease so they aren't just robotically listing the facts, it's to show they're human too. They're a stranger in your home and having some relaxed chit chat is to be expected, that's why they are encouraged to do it, because not all agents are socially confident. These are just good basic customer service tips. It's silly to make it sound devious. Waiters are ordered to be polite at all times, it isn't s devious ploy it's just good practice to try and help this flow.

So, with a skilful sales person there is no bull to skip, it's all information.

You can't just measure up and go because the decision is far, far, less trivial than that.

Part of the problem for the industry is customers don't know in advance that him improvements is a very big buy into a very sophisticated and nuanced process in which there are far more details than when buying your groceries.

A dramatic and fairly permanent change to your home takes, and is worth, more than an hour of considered conversation.

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GiddyOnZackHunt · 03/06/2016 16:26

Good Lord. How patronising. One person cannot possibly understand..., customers don't know in advance..., isn't feasible to know in advance...
Oddly enough we knew what we wanted, got a rough quote, picked our preferred of 3 and that took about 30 minutes. Bit more of a measure up and sorted. Very pleased. In fact so pleased we had the same guy back to do our next house.

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McT123 · 03/06/2016 16:58

One person cannot possibly learn all their is to know about the installation, they also won't remember most of what the agent tells them.

I'm astonished to discover that it is impossible to sell windows to single people...

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Vascillious · 03/06/2016 17:15

Allow me to rephrase it:

In a single sitting, lasting not longer than four hours, no one person can learn the answers to all there is to know about the purchase.

Here's a for example:

A sales person visits and one partner looks at the catalogue and chooses the design they like.

The sales agent leaves.

The partner arrives back home, they talk for a while about the conversation and the partner who was not present in the sitting says "This is all very well, but is this purchase insurance compliant?", "What if the neighbours hit a golf ball through a window pane, is accidental damage covered by the warranty?", "Who does the installation?", "Are they Fensa approved?", "Is it ISO9001 accredited?". etc.

What I'm saying is, even if you are a couple, your partner will not have identical thoughts and interests to you yourself. You cannot learn in a single sitting all there is to know about a sophisticated purchase.

The biggest hurdle the sale agent has is two fold:

  1. Getting through the fact there are many thousands of potential details, without boring you rigid. They just want to keep focussed on what you are personally interested in whilst complying to their legal requirements and telling you all you must know by law, but not making any claim they are not allowed to by law.


  1. Making the flow of the process as smooth and simple for you as possible so that it is simple, for you.


A skilled sales representative will have had about a year's training. Like them you won't learn the whole product knowledge over night, you will learn only what is pertinent to you.
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GiddyOnZackHunt · 03/06/2016 17:21

Ofgs what a lot of tripe.All of those answers could take up one paragraph in a brochure not 4 hours of hard sell. They're windows. Not the LHC.

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TheHiphopopotamus · 03/06/2016 17:22

I still want to know why double glazing companies don't just measure up, then give their best, fairest quote

Because some people (like my DM) will just say yes to the higher price not knowing that you're 'supposed' to haggle. And that's exactly why they do it. DM has twice been done over by this, because she didn't know how the system worked and thought they were a reputable company. In fact, I think my DB has as well.

Personally, I prefer someone who comes, measures up and goes away then either phones or sends me the quote, without pressure selling. But a lot of weak and vulnerable people fall for these companies flannel.

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NotYoda · 03/06/2016 17:24

Window Sales

A bit like Rocket Science?


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museumum · 03/06/2016 17:25

It's pressure selling. They have no intention of giving you a quote you can consider or compare to others.
They want you both there cause they're going to try to force you to sign up there and then. I won't deal with companies like this.

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PirateSmile · 03/06/2016 17:27

If double glazing companies gave their best and fairest quote there would be no need to 'haggle' down from a vastly inflated quote Confused

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Vascillious · 03/06/2016 17:31

I haven't got the time to keep on compensating for your own naivite.

Yes the answers to those specific example questions might not take up much time, the point being made is that this does not cover a fraction of the questions you Might want to have answered, nor the fraction of the information the representative must be aware of to enter your home.

I could continue to make lists of things you Might want to know.

What reassurances are you provided by the direct debit guarantee?

What does the consumer credit act cover and what protection does it offer?

What does "Fensa approved" mean?

What are the obligations of the lending arm for compliance with FCA regulations?

You are actually highlight exactly the point I'm making:

You simply don't know what goes into it.

That actually is the point.

It isn't the LHC, but neither is is a ballpoint pen.

You cannot learn all there is to know in four hours.

You are deceiving yourself if you think that you can, and confirming the truth of what I'm saying: You believe it is simpler than it is because you don't know what goes into it.

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GiddyOnZackHunt · 03/06/2016 17:43

Oh but we didn't enter in to a credit agreement. We're not naive either. We'd done our research ourselves. Better than asking someone partisan.

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GiddyOnZackHunt · 03/06/2016 17:57

Must be a nightmare in the supermarket for you? Not being able to buy things until you've fully understood everything about a product.

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PirateSmile · 03/06/2016 18:02

Well said Giddy I don"t know how we all go about buying cars, kitchens, houses without the assistance of a high pressure salesperson in our home for four hours Hmm

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NotYoda · 03/06/2016 18:09

The clue is in the name

Salesperson

Not Impartial Advisor, Mentor, or Kindly Neighbourhood House Protector

Do not trust you as far as I could throw you. Sorry.

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