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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

... ask MNers to boycott Starbucks?

805 replies

legoballoon · 16/10/2012 22:44

Personally, I won't be spending any money there again.

When I read the 'we pay our fair share of tax' statement, I almost choked on my (home made) hot chocolate. It's one law for the rich, another for us now is it?!

I think we should support small, UK-based independent coffee shops. Let's support businesses that generate wealth that is shared by local people.

OP posts:
CinnabarRed · 17/10/2012 12:37

If I were their accountant I couldn't talk about their tax affairs because it would breach my client confidentiality obligations.

I'm not Starbucks' accountant or tax adviser either!

I'm a tax policy adviser to the UK government and several overseas governments too. I help them understand how tax policy affects taxpayer behaviour.

SkippyYourFriendEverTrue · 17/10/2012 12:40

There are a multinational and there are some grounds for making the international payments. Whether the payments are excessive I don't know. But others such as McDonalds have similar (lower) payments and still pay UK CT.

Either way, I prefer to support a British business, since:

(a) it will benefit UK shareholders, pensioners, etc., and they will invest it in the British economy, not the US economy
(b) all the tax on profits is being paid in the UK rather than elsewhere
(c) the shareholders profit, dividends, etc. will result in further UK tax revenue (rather than US taxes)
(d) I am British I live in Britain, and we should support our own brands

Viviennemary · 17/10/2012 12:40

Quite a number of years ago Ratners, a jewellery company got some very bad publicity. I think one of the Directors called it tat in an attempt to be funny. It rapidly went from being on every high street to going bankrupt. So never underestimate the power of the people to make a difference. Of course this was a different issue.

SkippyYourFriendEverTrue · 17/10/2012 12:43

'Crap'

Although Ratners still exist in reality: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signet_Group, and they control a large part of the British jewellery market - H Samuel and Ernest Jones.

And truth be told, it's crapper than ever - there's more 9ct gold, more gold plating - a function of rising gold prices.

mommybunny · 17/10/2012 12:48

idococktailshedoesbeer, which "tax revelations" are you referring to, that support your choice to boycott Starbucks? The revelations that they are in compliance with their UK tax obligations and have not depleted funds available to their shareholders by writing a cheque to HMRC for an amount some media pundit stuck his finger in the air and said they are "morally obliged" to pay, but which cheque HMRC would and could never cash?

Again, not trying to be snarky or patronising but I think the whole rationale for a boycott as discussed in the second paragraph of the OP makes absolutely no sense at all. (I can get behind the rationale in the third paragraph though. And boycotting a place because they don't sell Diet Coke is, in all seriousness, as sensible a boycott reason as ever I heard.)

SkippyYourFriendEverTrue · 17/10/2012 12:51

Perhaps you could read the revelations mommybunny?

They are here: uk.reuters.com/article/2012/10/15/us-britain-starbucks-tax-idUKBRE89E0EX20121015

PosieParker · 17/10/2012 12:56

I ONLY buy local where I can.

LittleMissFlustered · 17/10/2012 12:57

Whittards often do a selection pack of syrups MrsRB

CinnabarRed · 17/10/2012 12:59

OK. The BBC.

I heard a poor BBC accountant interviewed on the Today programme by, I think, John Humphreys, and I felt really sorry for him. He was thrown to the dogs.

I need to give you some background here, to put what happens into context.

Generally speaking, it's very easy to tell if someone is employed or not. A contract of employment is usually a give-away.... It's also often easy to tell if someone is self-employed. Working for a number of different customers, flexibility over working arrangements accepted, etc.

However some people who were in employment decided that they didn't want to be employees any more (and this started in the IT sector in the early '80's, I think for cultural reasons). They didn't want to work office hours, or wear a suit, or commute, or be answerable to their boss. So they decided to strike out on their own.

Incidentally, there were tax advantages to being self-employed too - you paid tax through your tax return after the year end, rather than PAYE in real time, and you had lower NICs. There were disadvantages too - no paid holiday, no sick pay, no pension. The individuals concerned decided that on balance they preferred to take the rough with the smooth of self-employment.

How did employers react? Mostly, they hired the individuals back as contractors rather than employees. On the whole they were happy because they could hire contractors for one-off projects or work that didn't need full-time devotion.

The problem came that these contractors blurred the lines between employee and self-employed. HMRC cared because of the PAYE/NIC point. A whole raft of tests were established by case law which described the 'hallmarks of employment'. There are around a dozen of them, and their presence or absence gives an idea about whether contractors were employees or not. They're hard to apply, in practice. It's fairly common to find that half a dozen apply but the rest don't - where does that leave the contractor?

So, to put the matter beyond doubt, employers started asking contractors to incorporate service companies, which the contractor owned 100%. The employer would sign a contract with the service company - which couldn't possibly be an employment contract, as a matter of tax and employment law - and the service company required its shareholder to fulfil the terms of the contract.

That's what was happening at the BBC and many other organisations, and continues to happen now. It wasn't tax driven, although there used to be tax advantages. But for most people they were the cherry on the cake. The motivating force was the drive to be self-employed.

However, HMRC thought that some contractors were taking the piss. They had a point. Some of the contractors only had one contract - with their former employer - which they'd been running for years, with a desk at the former employer's office, and a business card, and a phone line, etc ete.

So HMRC introduced legislation that has the effect of applying the PAYE/NIC code to service companies. It takes away almost all of the tax breaks associated with having a service company. The other pro's and cons still apply.

The BBC has said categorically that if a contractor wants to be an employee then s/he will be put in payroll. If the contractor wants to be self-employed then they'll have to have a service company to put their status beyond doubt.

CinnabarRed · 17/10/2012 13:00

Macdonalds is a franchise - completely different business model.

CinnabarRed · 17/10/2012 13:01

"Either way, I prefer to support a British business.". Fair enough. Perfectly reasonable choice.

CinnabarRed · 17/10/2012 13:03

Genuine question though - why do you think it's wrong that a US company should pay US taxes on its US activities? I would have thought that was only fair.

Matsikula · 17/10/2012 13:04

Would just like to point out that one of the reason Starbucks UK is now paying less tax is because (according to those well known loony lefties at Reuters) they are making royalty payments for their brands. In my experience brand valuation is a massive con as anyone whose job it is to value these things generally has a big interest in exaggerating the value.

What has happened in the last 3 years that suddenly makes the Starbucks brand massively more valuable in the UK?

Anyway, arguing that 'this is all fine because it's standard accounting practice' looks a bit feeble when you remeber that ten years ago we all thought the banks were fine because the auditors said so.

Tax law and accounting practices are not and should not be absolutely set in stone because every now and again companies do something that simply doesn't pass the stink test.

In this case, Starbucks are using their international status to avoid tax in a way that is simply not available or affordable to smaller competitors, and I think that gives me A pretty good reason to withold my (already very limited as I hate their bland coffee and soulless outlets) custom.

flowery · 17/10/2012 13:08

I agree that supporting British businesses, local businesses and/or independent businesses are all good reasons for making purchasing decisions. My DH is a fan of doing this except when it comes to his seasonal gingerbread latte...

CinnabarRed · 17/10/2012 13:10

I agree that it's difficult to value brands. But not impossible. Actually, comparison to successful franchises is one way it's done.

You're right that small independent coffee house couldn't move its brand to, say, Ireland (corporate tax rate of 12.5%). But, frankly, why would it want to? And does it have any brand value outside of its own town anyhow.

Tell you what, though, if you want to read about some brand transfer pricing that does look seriously weird, then tale a look at the ActionAid report into SABMiller. Yes, it makes perfect sense for a factory in Ghana to pay a royalty for the Grolsch name when Grolsch isn't sold in Ghana or manufactured in that factory.... Hmm

SkippyYourFriendEverTrue · 17/10/2012 13:18

"Genuine question though - why do you think it's wrong that a US company should pay US taxes on its US activities?"

We are talking about UK activities here.

I don't know why they do this, but their business is structured so that UK profits are taxed in the US and not here.

Whether overall tax paid is lower this way, whether it benefits US shareholders, or something else, I wouldn't like to say.

merrymouse · 17/10/2012 13:28

I'm a little bit confused. I'm getting the impression that the people threatening to boycott Starbucks don't go there anyway...

SkippyYourFriendEverTrue · 17/10/2012 13:29
Grin
flowery · 17/10/2012 13:31

"I'm a little bit confused. I'm getting the impression that the people threatening to boycott Starbucks don't go there anyway... "

This could break the record for the 'boycott' with the least impact! Grin

ScrambledSmegsEvilTwin · 17/10/2012 13:32

merrymouse - Yup! Although weirdly this thread has actually made me want to go there and buy a gingerbread latte, despite the fact that I really don't like their coffee!

merrymouse · 17/10/2012 13:36

"Starbucks - remember that time 18 months ago when I was on your premises because my 4 year old was desperate for the loo and I bought a biscotti because I felt a bit guilty, but everything else was really expensive - well you will never see the likes of my custom again, so let that be a lesson to you!!!!"

SkippyYourFriendEverTrue · 17/10/2012 13:38

Stick it to the man!

SkippyYourFriendEverTrue · 17/10/2012 13:39

(has used their toilet without buying anything)

Matsikula · 17/10/2012 13:43

Cinnabar, okay, my local very excellent coffee shop is not known outside South London, but there are some small national chains that I am sure would love to reduce their tax burden e.g. Konditor and Cook, Patisserie Valerie, um... Greggs, but can't.

I thought global businesses were supposed to bring some benefits to consumers, like lower prices or better quality or more choice, but Starbucks grew beyond that about ten years ago.

lowercase · 17/10/2012 13:47

wont be going there again.

thanks for taking the time to post that OP.

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