... ask MNers to boycott Starbucks?

[legoballoon]

Personally, I won't be spending any money there again.

When I read the 'we pay our fair share of tax' statement, I almost choked on my (home made) hot chocolate. It's one law for the rich, another for us now is it?!

I think we should support small, UK-based independent coffee shops. Let's support businesses that generate wealth that is shared by local people.

Latara - well that is a hurdle - pay for college/qualifications.

People want minimum wage - no, I don't buy it.
Are not clever enough to do a job and learn something while doing it - I don't believe that either.

I don't think anyone doesn't want a sense of self worth - its about confidence.

Latara - would they be interested in apprenticeships? I mean real, respected, paid ones like there used to be 50 old years ago for plumbers, electricians, etc? Or would those be seen as education by the back door?

same is true for restaurants and all businesses really Cinnabar (are you named after a type of moth?). I see it time and time again. Some people get so swept away in the romance of working for themselves that they totally loose sight of the realities of what will be needed to make the business successful. You want to tell them not to do it but mostly they don't ask for your advice until they have got themselves tied into a lease, spent £££ on fitting out and then find that no one comes through the door. Of course not all businesses fail for that reason, but it's surprising how many do.

I think she means those kids who sit at school aged 14, in bottom sets, can't be bothered, parents think school is pointless ...

Those kids need to go and learn a trade, a real appreticeship like they have in Germany. In a few years time they would be good at something, have self-worth and may make an effort to specialise in their area ....

Well, I don't know about business plans and small coffee shops.

I do know that the reason I don't go to mine is that the loos are absolutely disgusting, despite numerous complaints.

Cinnabar - That's what I'm saying, IME (so I'm happy to be proven wrong), in the UK waiting/coffee shop jobs are viewed as unskilled jobs, not skilled. Regardless of the employer. When I was a waitress, I never worked for a multi-national, only locally owned shops/restaurants, and I, and the other employees I was working with (apart from chefs), were not "skilled" employees, receiving extensive training (or paid as skilled employees).

btw I know I can't spell lose before anyone comments.............

Latara, I do see your point about people in jobs. But the underlying problem for the economy right now is that the Government is cutting benefits, cutting public sector jobs (which includes people with low/no qualifications), cutting support for people getting into work. And the reason they are doing this is because they aren't getting enough money in. So it is important to take a stand on corporate tax avoidance - which is the middle classes saying "we're not going to drink your coffee until you pay your taxes because we care about the whole of society". Some estimates put corporate tax avoidance like this at £35bn a year - imagine how the lives of people working in Starbucks could be improved if society had that money, rather than it sitting in an offshore bank account.

Again, if people still drink coffee, just in different shops, the employment will still be there, but with Costa or a local independent shop rather than Starbucks. A boycott on Starbucks should not effect overall employment.

There are minimal apprenticeships anywhere. Nearly all the older members of my family worked as apprentices on low pay to become plumbers, electricians, hairdressers, engineers / mechanics etc etc.

Apprenticeships are ideal for young people who want to go straight to work.

No-one wakes up & decides, ''right, i'll be happy with minimum wage'' - but school until age 18 then further or higher education aren't liked, wanted, or achievable for many people.

I know minimum wage HCAs (care assistants) who are having to be dragged through the NVQ process - they can't live on min wage & need tax credits to survive (but they're being cut...) - some people enjoy NVQs but some people hate it & don't see why they should have to do them.

Also what about employees who return to work after children but don't have qualifications - or older people like my mum, who need to work but again, don't have qualifications & are scared of exams & hate coursework??

You have to understand people to understand WHY a boycott of any employer doesn't benefit local people.

Rosieres - with all the local students looking for jobs (under 21s so they get paid less which makes them more attractive employees) - then the women in their 50s at my local Starbucks won't stand a chance.

They have less qualifications & don't look quite as 'cute' to the average employer.

Plus they enjoy their jobs; they pay rent or mortgage & other bills; they can't just get made redundant, go on benefits which can take weeks to process; then 'just' get another job which you say will be there (it won't; when did you last go to the JobCentre? Most people are older & desperate for any job but may never work again).

Are you sure that it's tax avoidance which is causing a shortfall of £35bn, or tax evasion? Because if it's avoidance - it's the law that needs changed, as this is legal, but if it's tax evasion then that is illegal and there needs to be a crack down on it. Which, incidentally there is, though largely from the US (the introduction of FATCA) and Switzerland (loosening their banking secrecy rules).

So .... are all Mumsnetters going to boycott Starbucks?

I can talk about the £35bn tax gap (which is about £20bn evasion/fraud and £15bn avoidance) later, but have a meeting now. But only if people are interested, I don't want to waste your time.

I'm named after my first yacht . Not sure this is the right thread to admit that on...

I'm a big advocate of a return to real, proper, paid apprenticeships.

I agree that it's UK culture that treats coffee shop workers, and others, as unskilled. Actually, I think they are skilled, but that's irrelevant.

Well i'm not.

Nope.

Cinnabar - i definitely agree about the apprenticeships.

"Same with Tesco. The 'local butchers' don't employ the amount of people who have jobs at your local Tesco - & how do you know if the 'local butchers' treat their workers any better - in fact do you actually care?"

WTAF?

My local butchers certainly employ more people than work on the butchers counter at Tesco, and they know more about the meat too. Not as much as the entire Tesco, no. But just think how many local shops, and jobs, there were before Tesco.

The idea that because Tesco can replace a dozen local shops with low-paid unskilled labour, Tesco must be better is absurd.

BTW, just on this local jobs for local people theme, many of these types of business appear to be staffed entirely by Polish immigrants.

we have around 8 privately owned coffee places in town that have been operating for over 3-4 years. They operate along side 2 neros, 3 starbucks, 1 costa, on M&S cafe

In fact one of the private cafes opened next door to one starbucks and both cafe's are jammed packed on a saturday

It has more to do with business plan - and what a smart move to open up next to your rival - whether you can afford to make a loss for the first 2-3 years and if you known how to run a business as well as operate your business, some people know how to do one or the other but not always both.

So .... are all Mumsnetters going to boycott Starbucks?

no

Agree about waitressing etc. being skilled. I personally feel that everyone should have a stint of doing that kind of job, to understand what it's like to do a difficult, skilled job, and be treated like crap and paid little for the privilege.

Also agree about the apprenticeships, or similar schemes. Part of the problem (again) is cultural - trade based jobs do not have the same cache as more "academic" jobs. In South Africa (where I'm from), they have trade based high schools, so from the age of 12 onwards, people can choose to go to a high school where instead of doing traditional, academic subjects (e.g. geography, history etc.) they become qualified to be a plumber, electrician and are qualified when they finish school and go straight out to work and earn money. There's no stigma attached. One of my brothers did this, as he's just not interested in academic subjects, but is very talented when it comes to anything electronic. For him to sit in a classroom learning about something he has no talent for and doesn't care about until he's 16 would have been very demoralising, whereas, as it stood, he could do something he was good at and became qualified in.

Cinnabar for the purposes of this thread I think moth would be the safer option, esp when you say named after your first yacht

And nah can't boycott Starbucks as we are too posh for such a common type of coffee shop

Oh so glad I am not posh it must be very restrictive

TBF, I've only ever had 2 and don't have any at all now.....

And surely immigrants are still local people, contributing to the local community, for the time that they're living here?

You don't have to be white British to be local.