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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To ask how defending Lawyers/Solicitors sleep at night.

460 replies

lollilou · 09/10/2012 10:43

When they are defending someone who is accused of a horrible crime and that they know are guilty yet have to come up with a defense to try to get a not guilty verdict? It must happen a lot, how could you live with yourself in that situation? What if the accused gets off then commits another crime?

OP posts:
SaraBellumHertz · 10/10/2012 11:01

sashh we do have "defending lawyers" and most barristers do tend to specialise in one or the other once they have a bit of experience

Sidge · 10/10/2012 11:03

I've found this thread very interesting as my knowledge of the legal system and process is quite limited (despite sitting on jury service once!).

I didn't realise that if the defendant's legal representative knows s/he is guilty then s/he can't assist them in providing a not guilty case but mitigates the case. Thinking about it it seems obvious now but I think that's what the OP was getting at; not about obtaining fair legal representation for all accused people.

stargirl1701 · 10/10/2012 11:10

Knowing that they are part of our functioning democracy where accused are entitled to representation. Why would you feel otherwise? This is one of the bedrocks of UK justice.

mumsbum · 10/10/2012 11:28

.

slappywappydoodah · 10/10/2012 13:34

Right, sorry but I can't be bothered to read through 230 answers to this post, but it's made me angry that the question has even been asked.

I am a solicitor, though admittedly not a criminal defence solicitor. I do however know a vast number of defence solicitors who are good people and yet have defended people accused of, amongst other offences, murder, child abuse and rape.

First, if a defence solicitor KNOWS that a defendant has committed a crime (e.g. if they admit guilt), they advise the defendent to plead guilty. Should they refuse to do so, the solicitor is unable to continue to defend them and must inform the judge of such (in a tactful manner). Failure to do so constitutes serious misconduct.

Secondly, where a defendant has pleaded guilty, the solicitor's role is the to ensure that a fair sentence is given. Pleas in mitigation are heard, and defence solicitors usually set out the reasons why the lowest possible sentence should be given. On the other side, the prosecution sets out the reasons why the offender should be handed the most harsh sentence possible. The judge weighs the evidence and decides on the punishment. There are almost always partial defences or personal issues which may have an impact. Our legal system allows for this because it is FAIR to both parties.

Thirdly, where a defence solicitor is required to defebnde their client (e.g. on a not guilty plea), this is absolutely necessary to uphold the human right which ALL of us should enjoy - the right to a fair trial. If someone pleads not guilty it is not for you, the Daily Mail, the alleged victim's family or anyone else to decide whether they are in fact lying - that is for a judge or a jury to decide. In the UK we use an adversarial system in our court rooms, allowing both sides the chance to speak and both sides the chance to challenge each other's evidence. The aim here is to ensure that all facts are determined and all circumstances and word-against-word issues are hashed out, allowing the jury/judge to balance the evidence.

Fourthly, many of you appear to be suggesting that all victims tell the whole truth all of the time, or that all alleged victims are in fact just that. The harsh reality is that there are a huge number of false allegations made each and every day and, even where allegations are true, they are often exaggerated. If nothing else, a fair trial is just that - FAIR for BOTH parties. I have personally sat in on a rape trial where the poor man had been falsely accused. You'd have thought, from the press coverage and the fact that the alleged victim cried all the way through her examination and cross examination behind a requested screen, that she was telling the truth. Luckily, the defendent had a fantastic defence barrister who proved beyond reasonable doubt that she was lying in just three questions. She later admitted that she had just regretted the incident and had lied. This is not an uncommon occurence.

Finally, in order to prove guilt, it must be proven "beyond all reasonable doubt" in a fair trial. How can reasonable doubt be removed for any intelligent person without hearing both sides of a story and all evidence available? Just because you feel particularly strongly about some cases (e.g. child abuse or a brutal murder which has been proven beyond reasonable doubt) does not mean that the legal system is wrong.

Might I suggest that those of you who think defence solicitors "shouldn't be able to sleep at night" consider how you would feel if you were falsely accused of a crime?

mumsbum · 10/10/2012 13:37

you lost me on large numbers of false allegations, victim blaming at its best there.

slappywappydoodah · 10/10/2012 13:45

FGS, it's not victim blaming at all - it's the very reason that both sides are heard. Just because victims are telling the truth in X number of cases does not mean that they always are. Just as defendants do not always tell the truth. If everyone did, we wouldn't need this legal system.

I'm sorry but I thought it was intelligently implied that not all defendants tell the truth either.

The discussion here is about why defence solicitors do their jobs and there's the reason - because defendants deserve a fair trial too. if someone pleads not guilty, quite frankly, they deserve to have their side heard.

higgle · 10/10/2012 13:56

There are false allegations though - and usually in the most unpleasant of cases. I always slept very soundly at night when I was a defence solicitor and seldom felt troubled by my work ( even when defending in a baby murder case when I was pregnant myself ) . Now I work for a charity delaing with the care and support of older people. When I see how family members treat their parents, weedling and coniving to get their hands on the family assets I'm afraid I do end up waking up at 3am worrying about their welfare.

ReindeersGoldenBollocks · 10/10/2012 14:02

My defence lawyer DH sleeps like a baby. The bugger snores all night and keeps me up instead!

(yes I'm being facetious Grin )

mumsbum · 10/10/2012 14:04

I am sure there are false allegations, but The harsh reality is that there are a huge number of false allegations made each and every day and, even where allegations are true, they are often exaggerated that is not mentioning some, its a blatant attempt at victim blaming and should be challenged.

"Howcommonarefalseallegations?Itisnotpossibletoestablishan
exactigureandtheresearchthatisavailablegivesawiderangeof
suggestedpercentages.Someresearchsuggeststhataigureofeight
totenpercentofreportedrapescouldwellbefalsereports.
33
However,
thosewespoketointhesystemfeltthattherewereveryfew.ACrown
ProsecutionService(CPS)lawyertoldus,?Theyareextremelyrare.
I havebeenprosecutingfor20years,andhaveprosecutedforafalse
allegationonce.?Thejudgeswetalkedtosaidthesecasesoccurvery
infrequently.An experiencedpoliceoficerhadcomeacrosstwosuch
casesin15 years. "

<a class="break-all" href="http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110608160754/www.equalities.gov.uk/PDF/Stern_Review_acc_FINAL.pdf" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">stern review. They do happen, in any crime, but not in huge numbers at all, and as for accusing rape victims of exaggerating, words fail me.

And this is from a person who proclaims to be a professional.

mumsbum · 10/10/2012 14:07

"How common are false allegations? It is not possible to establish an
exact figure and the research that is available gives a wide range of
suggested percentages. Some research suggests that a igure of eight
to ten percent of reported rapes could well be false reports.

However, those we spoke to in the system felt that there were very few. A Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) lawyer told us, ?They are extremely rare. I have been prosecuting for 20 years, and have prosecuted for a false
allegation once. ?The judges we talked to said these cases occur very
infrequently. An experienced police officer had come across two such
cases in 15 years."

Helps if you can read it.

lollilou · 10/10/2012 14:17

Thank you to all who have replied. I don't see why it has angered so many though. I still believe it is a question which many people are curious about as other posters have said they have been asked the same many times. I am glad I asked and have been educated on lots of points.

OP posts:
GoSakuramachi · 10/10/2012 14:22

You don't see why it angered people? You told people their career was a disgrace and it was their fault if people got to commit more crimes, and wondered how they could sleep at night.
It was deeply offensive, as well as naive.

EldritchCleavage · 10/10/2012 14:25

One thing this thread has shown to me is that there is an enormous lack of knowledge about how our justice system, civil and criminal actually works. Anyone remember the thread where lots of posters admitted they didn't know the difference between 'charged' and 'convicted'? Also on that thread, people asking why there were trials because if the police had seen fit to charge someone, he had obviously done it.

If people do not even know, much less understand, the current system they are very likely to be suspicious of it. Especially when TV drama, most of which is US-derived, gives them such a hyped-up version of it and leads people to expect nice, pat solutions and lots of catharsis all round.

|If schools are covering this kind of thing (e.g. in Personal and Social Education), it's not working. If they aren't covering it they should be. Because all citizens really really need to know (i) our system of government and elections; and (ii) our court system as the absolute basics.

And as far as sexual offences are concerned, I wonder why people always blame lawyers for the poor conviction rates and never juries. Any rape thread on Mumsnet will uncover some very unpalatable views on this topic, victim-blaming, you name it. There must be some trials where lawyers can do whatever they like, the defendant won't be convicted because a number of jurors have just such attitudes.

mumsbum · 10/10/2012 14:25

People are angered because the only way they can sleep at night is not to hold it as their responsibility if their client gets off and reoffends - you have challenged their belief that their only responsibility (other than if their client has admitted guilt) is a good defence.

I expect most defence barristers probably couldn't give a flying one what you, I or the general public think, the ones who are offended by the question, are, in all fairness, probably the ones with a conscience.

mumsbum · 10/10/2012 14:26

eldritch "the defendant won't be convicted because a number of jurors have just such attitudes.", yes this is what we were told has probably happened in our case - given that there was strong evidence in favour of a conviction.

lollilou · 10/10/2012 14:28

GoSakuramachi What the fuck. I did not say any of that! Don't put your words on my post.

OP posts:
EldritchCleavage · 10/10/2012 14:28

What is actually the alternative to having defence lawyers though? None of the disapprovers have said, beyond the very general-have an investigating magistrate (not that they are fool-proof: have a look at the Gregory Villeneuve case). But defence lawyers exist even in an inquisitorial system.

Those who disapprove so strongly and think it is wrong: what (in detail please) would you have instead?

GoSakuramachi · 10/10/2012 14:30

Actually you did. Read your own OP.

"how do defending lawyers sleep at night"
"When they are defending someone who is accused of a horrible crime and that they know are guilty yet have to come up with a defense to try to get a not guilty verdict? It must happen a lot, how could you live with yourself in that situation? What if the accused gets off then commits another crime?"

HazleNutt · 10/10/2012 14:32

What's the alternative then? We should enver doubt any allegations and accusations, assume all alleged victims are telling truth and nothing but the truth and just send people to do the time?

What if you are the person accused?

EldritchCleavage · 10/10/2012 14:34

That's hideous, mumsbum, I'm so sorry.

I think the system is ours, all of us, not just the people who work in it. We all have to have a sense of responsibility to victims. There should be no 'I don't want to get involved' from witnesses, for example. The arguments that put all responsibility for where we are with sexual offences onto defence barristers are avoiding a more unpalatable truth, I think.

mumsbum · 10/10/2012 14:36

The issue isnt the defence lawyer, it is the system, personally, I think it would help if the victim had a barrister too, someone who they trust, if the victim was allowed to put questions to the defendant, through the barrister rather than not be allowed to approach the Crown Prosecutor to discuss the case.

It seems very one sided, when the defendant, can ask through his barrister/via solicitor to barrister, anything they like, but the victim does not have the same right.

If the defendant says something that is blatantly untrue, the victim has no recourse.

I could go on and on, and I know investigative magistrates, can fail too, but, it is no-ones job to get to the truth and that is what, IMO, is missing.

Court is simply not about the truth.

lljkk · 10/10/2012 14:38

I am DD of a criminal defense lawyer. And another one who can't believe the question even needs to be asked.

Defense lawyers are an incredibly important and valuable part of making sure that the justice is done. Justice wouldn't be possible without them.

lollilou · 10/10/2012 14:42

If it doesn't need to be asked why do so many in the legal profession say they have been asked this question over and over again? I needed to be educated on this matter and thank the ones who have done so without vitriol and nastiness.

OP posts:
EldritchCleavage · 10/10/2012 14:43

Lollilou, do you think it would be good to have learned this stuff at school, e.g. in a citizenship class? I do.