to be shocked that I heard the teacher shouting this to a primary age child?

[CrapBag]

I was in the school the other day. A class were having PE, I don't know what age group. It was a male teacher with a particularly loud shouty voice. From the shouting I established that a boy had cut in the line (they were lining up to leave the hall). The teacher really shouted at this boy about cutting in and how rude it was etc etc, really going for it. Then we heard "YOU ARE NOTHING BUT A BULLY" shouted to this lad.

I know I don't know this child, he may be a bully. I don't know the context other than he cut in line at the end of PE but I was quite horrifed really to hear a teacher shout, and I do mean shout as in bellow, at this lad and call him this.

I must admit I am a fan of labelling the behaviour rather than the child. I am by no means a perfect parent but if DS is playing up, I will always tell him that what he is doing is naughty etc, not that he is naughty.

I wouldn't have been at all happy had this been my DC. I know it wasn't as mine is in reception and this was an older class.

Should I be shocked? Am I just being too precious at my first born being at school now?

[CrapBag]

Mia4 that is awful and I would hope, not too common an incident. But then I am entering my first dealings with school so I don't know.

Surely self fulfilling prophecy enters into it also? IE, tell someone they are nothing but a bully then thats what they will be? Its why I don't call DS naughty. He came down the stairs not long ago and said "mummy I am a really naughty boy aren't I" when I told him he wasn't (he is actually a very well behaved child, for the majority of the time) he insisted that he was.

[AgentZigzag]

'So where is the value in sitting them down nicely and telling them that they are making someone else feel shit?'

And where's the value in making them feel shit themselves? You've just said it's not nice for children to make other children feel like crap, so how is it OK to do it back?

You might think what I'm saying is an example of the wishy washy, everything that's wrong with society bollocks, but honestly, getting your evil on a childs ass (to coin a phrase) will just make them more angry at the world and not improve their behaviour.

Unless your objective is to get them back for what they've done? (which is totally fine for me to think in private about my bullies or those of my DDs, but it's not what I want anywhere near a schools bullying policy) Why would you do that when you could teach them an important lesson about empathy?

[MamaMumrOrangeTheGolden]

I would not be impressed at all if I'd overheard that - it sounds from yor OP that the teacher lost it. Anyone can be a bully. It's the phrase "you are nothing but a ...." that would grate the most.

It doesn't seem a reasonable or measured thing to say.

[Nanny0gg]

YANBU.
Teachers shout. They shouldn't really, but sometimes they do.
However, I think what this particular teacher shouted was unprofessional. Doesn't matter the context, doesn't matter that it was a 'snapshot'. If the HT had heard it, or an OFSTED instpector, it wouldn't have gone well.

What do you want to do about it. OP?

[halcyondays]

Hmm, if the child was a persistent bully, then I'd rather hear some plain speaking from a teacher than the " oh don't do that" and then forgot it and ignore it response to bullying that you get from some teachers,

[MamaMumrOrangeTheGolden]

To clarify, from your post, the teacher sounds like a bully.

[theninjabreadma]

I don't think self fulfilling prophecy really applies so much in the case of bullies to be honest. I can't honestly imagine a scenario where the label would come before the behaviour. If someone doesn't want to be labelled a bully, then the way to avoid it is to not be a bully.

[MoRaw]

Agentzigzag, I am at a loss to understand how discipling a bully is bullying them in return. Please explain that logic to me. This just sounds like an excuse for not dealing with the problem in a firm way.

A bully must be spoken to firmly and must be made to know in no uncertain terms that they are out of order.

Kids must be prepared for the real world. Treating a bully with kids gloves at school is all well and good but when they face up to the real world, some may not used kids gloves to deal with them.

Rebuking a bully is a really mild punishment compared to the havoc they are wrecking on other's lives. Seriously, how can telling a bully, they are a bully be "damaging" to the bully? Damaging how? That they are made to feel ashamed about their behaviour? Isn't that exactly how they should be feeling? Ashamed for what they are doing?

[WofflingOn]

The definition of bullying includes that it is a repeated act, it is impossible to be bullied once. So it depends whether this is a one-off incident of a teacher losing the plot, or if he's targeting the child on a regular basis.
But yes, some children who bully are impervious to most of the strategies and sanctions available, and their victims often feel helpless, ignored and doomed.
'What's the point in complaining, it won't change anything' is a very sad line to hear.

[Dominodonkey]

YABU - In that circumstance the child was most likely being 'nothing but a bully.' It's all this pussyfooting around and being scared to discipline children that makes some of them think they can do what they like with no consequence.
If the child doesn't like what the teacher is saying or it upsets him.. Good! Maybe he will think twice in future.

[CrapBag]

Something else did occur to me and I will now be accused of drip feeding but I am currently on several threads at the same time so head is thinking of too many things, I think I was shocked as well because this was the teachers second PE lesson and he had shouted pretty much a lot of the time in the previous lesson. I normally wouldn't take any notice of a teacher shouting. I would not do their job for anything tbh and I do have huge respect and admiration for what they do. The only reason it seemed to be noticeable is that we were on a course and it was actually very difficult to concentrate and hear the instructor. I know she was fed up. It wasn't the usual room that we were in.

Basically, this teacher may well have been at the end of his tether, but he was having a shouty couple of lessons. It wasn't a one off shout out of the blue.

Anyway, some comments have opened my eyes. Yes, known bullies shouldn't be treated with kid gloves. Maybe pointing it out in public is the way to deter them. I just hope in this case that that is what was happening and it wasn't a phrase shouted at a child who had just cut in line.

[theninjabreadma]

But AgentZigZag, the point I was making in my earlier post is that I don't think that shouting at them and pointing their behaviour out is humiliating, nor so I think it makes them feel like shit. Any bullies I have ever come across in my life have been quite proud of it, so they're not actually going to feel humiliated by having it pointed out.

They might, however, feel deterred by the fact that they have been found out. It won't change them and make them nicer people, but it might help them be more careful about how they behave and surely thats a good thing?

[CrapBag]

"I don't think self fulfilling prophecy really applies so much in the case of bullies to be honest. I can't honestly imagine a scenario where the label would come before the behaviour. If someone doesn't want to be labelled a bully, then the way to avoid it is to not be a bully"

Thats a good point actually.

[AgentZigzag]

Shouting 'Oi, pack that in' in front of the class MoRaw, giving them a firm talking to about what's expected of them and what will happen if they don't behave in private, is fine.

Labelling them as a bully in front of the class, because of the difficulties of where bullying boundaries lay and the causes of that behaviour, is not fine.

It gives the child nowhere to go but to live up to what's expected of them.

Honestly, you'd be surprised I'm saying that given what I was thinking earlier about DDs bullies 'Allsorts' would be the polite way of putting it.

But in a similar way (and I'm not comparing the two!) to the way I don't think families of murder victims should have any influence over whether we have the death penalty because of the emotion involved, we should treat bullies with strategies that have been shown to work to make them productive adults, not just use knee jerk reactions.

[MoRaw]

Hi Agentzigzag

I do not want to engage in a back and forth here, so this is going to be my last on the matter.

You said "And where's the value in making them feel shit themselves? You've just said it's not nice for children to make other children feel like crap, so how is it OK to do it back?"

First of all, it would be nice to get an answer to my question as you are the one suggesting that the wishy washy approach is the best way forward.

Secondly, you seem to neglect a very fundamental and glaring point, the bully is making others feel crap for no reason. The bully is making innocent kids feel crap. Making someone (i.e., the bully) feel crap for the terrible wrong they are doing (i.e., for no reason) seems VERY appropriate to me. In your adult life, do you think that when people do wrong (think of bullying at the work place or any wrong doing you can think of) do you not think the person should be made to feel ashamed for what they have done? Or do you propose they are cuddled and all that wishy washy nonsense. We must as a society be brave enough to denounce disgusting behaviours in no uncertain terms. Cuddling wrong doers have not resulted in a reduction in these bad behaviours. Things are simply getting worse with wrong doers even feeling outrage if they are spoken to harshly and not caressed.

Finally, I can assure you (and this is anecdotal as well as from my own experience) bullies back off from those who take a firm stance against them. Have you ever known bullies to bother those who stand up to them and call them to boot?

[AgentZigzag]

It's not wishy washy Mo, it's effective.

Why would you not want to make them into better people, it's like saying why bother trying to reintegrate offenders back into society? Well, because societies got to live with their behaviour, why not try to stop them?

There's a firm stance, and there's making things worse.

Our children have to go to school with these children, why wouldn't you want to address their behaviour in ways which make them realise what they're doing?

You don't really think shouting at him in this way would do anything do you??

[MoRaw]

LOL! Permit to answer this last time out of courtesy as you addressed me.

Is it really effective Agentzigzag? Really? Let's be honest here. You are just making an assertion. Just look around you. Listen to the stories from almost all schools. If you have friends that are teachers, listen to their verdict. Most will say that the problem is worse and that their hands are tied.

You also mentioned you and your daughter are currently addressing bullying issues. How effective has that wishy washy approach been (sorry, I will keep calling it wishy washy)? If it is working for your daughter, then great and I sincerely, sincerely hope that your daughter no longer has to deal with this problem.

In my experience, taking a firm stance rarely makes matters worse. As for the shouting, we are arguing over something we don't really know much about. However, assuming the teacher shouted because this young man was abusing another pupil, then yes I think it would have done good. Firstly, it would have stop the behaviour immediately and secondly, calling out the bullying and shaming him may help the others realise that they can face up to the bully (he is not invincible). Furthermore, I do believe that shaming people into stopping their behaviour works. It works in the adult world and it also works in the kiddies world.

Look, this was not a toddler from what I gather. This was a child with a good level of understanding.

Anyway, permit me to bow out of this. I don't think you and I will see eye to eye on this. I very much respect your opinion on the matter and I also understand where you are coming from. Different strokes for different folks. That's what makes society interesting (as long as it is not illegal).

[slambang]

I'm an ex teacher and I'd be pretty shocked to hear a colleague say this.

Shouting - well, not so clever but the 'Nothing but' bit is what seems pretty rubbish to me.

To say 'You are nothing but a bully' means 'you have no redeeming characteristics. What defines you is your bullying-ness and everything else about you is worthless.' Doesn't give a kid much incentive to improve really, does it?

[AgentZigzag]

Sorry, I'm not meaning to goad you or anything Mo, and I partly agree with some of what you say.

It's just that the approach you describe has never worked in the past and I don't have faith in it. Looking from a purely objective psychological viewpoint, policies should be based on what's been shown to work, and something that supports the victims as well as the bullies.

You might think supporting bullies is a waste of time, but they are children too, and deserve a chance at becoming 'good' people.

If you looked into the background of what makes a child feel they have to make other childrens lives hell, you might change your mind. They're not born like that (apart from any medical issues), they're made by what they see and hear, and that's what needs addressing. Otherwise you're setting them up for a life of underachievement and more bullying.

I never thought I'd be sticking up for bullies on today of all days, so thank you for making me see differently if nothing else

[CrapBag]

"To say 'You are nothing but a bully' means 'you have no redeeming characteristics. What defines you is your bullying-ness and everything else about you is worthless.' Doesn't give a kid much incentive to improve really, does it?"

This was my point put in such a simple way that I wouldn't have thought of. I am crap at explaining myself.

[AgentZigzag]

I agree with that as well CrapBag.

[theninjabreadma]

for all that I was defending the teacher earlier, I do agree that the words 'you are nothing but...' might imply that there is nothing else to the child and no hope of improvement, and I do believe in giving children the chance to change.

[quirrelquarrel]

I wouldn't mind some of the people at my secondary school being shouted at like that. To me, they were nothing but bullies, boring bullies, and I was amazed at the amount of sucking up done by the teachers just to get on their good side, so they wouldn't kick off.

To a primary age kid, when all he's doing is pushing in the line, of course you can be shocked at that.

[Flojo1979]

YANBU, sounds totally unprofessional.
Shouting is never a good idea but sometime is needed to grab attention and to stress a point. Not to go on shouting and certainly not to call a child a bully, especially in front of his peers.

[Maria2007loveshersleep]

I find it interesting on threads like this how shouting / name calling is perceived as 'being firm' (when in fact it's anything but), while there's this other undefined so far pole of being 'wishy washy'. The idea being that adult authority can only be exerted through shouts and not strict, firm frameworks & consequences that work.

I also think its terribly sad & makes me feel hopeless when people talk of primary age children in such a way, ie labelling them bullies and that's that. There needs to be serious attention to why these children behave this way, as lack of empathy & sadistic tendencies are really difficult qualities to try to change in a child & it's best done earlier rather than later, at the same time of course as one would make very clear rules about this behaviour not being acceptable.