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To approve of a German courts decision re circumcision

618 replies

SlipperyNipple · 29/06/2012 10:33

Apologies if this has already been covered.

I am Jewish by descent but an an agnostic. I think the time has come to say that being religious is not an excuse to carry out mutilation of small boys.

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/27/circumcision-ruling-germany-muslim-jewish?newsfeed=true

Obviously Female circumcision is already illegal but the same protection should be given to boys.

OP posts:
VanCampsPorknBeans · 02/07/2012 13:34

And by the way, I "mutilated" by DD at the tender age of 2.5yrs - when I paid a top notch doc in the States to have her tonsils and adenoids removed because I slightly suspected that they may have some negative affect on DD's lack of a good nights sleep. That procedure was way more painful than a circumcision. And I'm happy I did it!

VanCampsPorknBeans · 02/07/2012 13:37

Foreskin is ugly, wrinkly, and can stink if not cleaned properly. Even if cleaned properly, it traps sweat.

MousyMouse · 02/07/2012 13:39

my armpits trap sweat... I will not have my arms cut off for "hygenic" reasons...

squoosh · 02/07/2012 13:40

VanCamps you are just a brainwashed American. Fact.

I can't understand this American squeamishness towards foreskins. I mean, really can't understand. Penises with foreskins is how evolution and nature intended them. What's gross is whipping that bit of skin off as soon as they're out of the womb. How do you squeamish little lambs even manage to have sex? Isn't that too gross and icky? Hmm

PandaWatch · 02/07/2012 13:40

Of course there is a difference. But it appears that this is such an emotive subject that most people on one side are incapable of looking at the other side's perspective.

As for the effect on adult men, in my experience (DH and a previous boyfriend - one circumcised for religious reasons, one American but not Jewish or Muslim so presumably just because) it does not affect performance at all. Of course that's not to say that it doesn't affect anyone but I've never heard of a circumcised man regretting the fact that he's circumcised.

Krumbum · 02/07/2012 13:44

The labia trap sweat too Vancamps, even if cleaned properly. And some people believe they are 'ugly', do you think all women should go through fgm too?

VanCampsPorknBeans · 02/07/2012 13:44

You need your armpits. But does one need foreskin? Anyways, to each his own. But, I would never sleep with a uncircumcised man. It's uncivilized. Good to know about UK men, though.

squoosh · 02/07/2012 13:47

Alas, those poor be-foreskinned pensies will never know the clamp of your horrified American vagina.

A tragedy!

PandaWatch · 02/07/2012 13:47

VanCamp 's posts remind me of the episode of SATC when Charlotte refers to an uncircumcised penis as looking like a shar pei Confused

sashh · 02/07/2012 13:48

Thanks Cookie, yeah my first hand experience is mainly with my orthodox neighbours, (I lived in Hampstead Garden Suburb) who didn't have TV's or computers.

There was some talk about putting - sorry I cannot remember the term - basically a wire around the area so that women could move about on Shabbat. It was something to do with making the area within the wire a symbolic home. The main objection seemed to be that if the wire broke then a woman would be sinning if she walked to a friend's house with the wire broken.

At the time I also worked in a private hospital, where the majority of doctors and patients (but strangely not nurses, physios, radiographers) were Jewish, which I loved because we didn't need to go in if there were no procedures, so only emergencies were handled on Jewish holidays, we seemed to forever be having a day off (adding bank holidays to Jewish ones).

The hospital obviously had Kosher food, but a few patients would not eat it in case it wasn't up to their standard.

PandaWatch · 02/07/2012 13:48

squoosh Grin

Krumbum · 02/07/2012 13:48

Don't need your labia vancamps, answer my question above.
You sound like a bloody colonialist 'uncivilised'! That's ridiculous.
So if you were about to have sex with a guy you really liked and then felt he had a foreskin, you would actually leave over it?

AllYoursBabooshka · 02/07/2012 13:48

How the fuck do you know how they smell then?

Oh, Ok VanCamp. They smell when they are not cleaned properly and some girls find them icky, Chop 'em off.

Proof if anyone needed it that many air heads people put their infant sons through unnecessary surgery for cosmetic reasons.

Uncivilized, Oh the fucking irony.

hackmum · 02/07/2012 13:49

VanCamp: "Good to know about UK men, though."

I hate to disappoint you, but the US is the only country in the world where men are routinely circumcised for non-religious reasons. So if you were to go to Australia or Denmark or Iceland or India or almost anywhere other than the US, Israel or the various Muslim countries, you'd find the majority of men were uncircumcised. Better play it safe and stick to nice clean American men - you won't come to any harm there.

I suspect you're having us on, though:-)

PandaWatch · 02/07/2012 13:51

sashh I think you're referring to the wire (not sure of the name) that acts as a border around that area to get around the rule of not carrying anything outside on the Sabbath. It's intended to allow people to carry their children/push pushchairs etc without breaking the Sabbath (which applies to every Jewish person - not just women).

VanCampsPorknBeans · 02/07/2012 13:51

Krumbum - If I were an infant when it was done ...
and it was done by a top notch doctor in a hospital at the request of my loving parents,
and I did not remember the process,
and it enhanced the quality of my life,
then I'd be all for it!

But, don't mind me, I'm just a vanity-obsessed American. And you are not.

Krumbum · 02/07/2012 13:52

Why dont we just start giving babies nose jobs if they arnt up to standard? Oo that baby is a bit chubby, probably needs some cheek implants. It is INSANE to cut your baby up for cosmetic reasons.

medjool · 02/07/2012 13:53

sashh I don't know where you got your information on religious circumcision being done with a fingernail. The suction of blood is done via a tube - there is no mouth to penis contact for hygeine reasons, except in very closed religious circles who shun the modern world - I'm not talking about ultra orthodox in general, I mean very small, insular groups. Orthodox society generally shuns this as unhygenic and uneccessary due to modern techniques/equipment.

More from www.jewfaq.org on the whys and hows of Jewish circumcision:-

The commandment to circumcise is given at Gen. 17:10-14 and Lev. 12:3. The covenant was originally made with Abraham. It is the first commandment specific to the Jews.

Like so many Jewish commandments, the brit milah is commonly perceived to be a hygienic measure; however the biblical text states the reason for this commandment quite clearly: circumcision is an outward physical sign of the eternal covenant between G-d and the Jewish people. It is also a sign that the Jewish people will be perpetuated through the circumcised man. The health benefits of this practice are merely incidental. It is worth noting, however, that circumcised males have a lower risk of certain cancers, and the sexual partners of circumcised males also have a lower risk of certain cancers.

The commandment is binding upon both the father of the child and the child himself. If a father does not have his son circumcised, the son is obligated to have himself circumcised as soon as he becomes an adult. A person who is uncircumcised suffers the penalty of kareit, spiritual excision; in other words, regardless of how good a Jew he is in all other ways, a man has no place in the World to Come if he is uncircumcised.

Circumcision is performed on the eighth day of the child's life, during the day. The day the child is born counts as the first day, thus if the child is born on a Wednesday, he is circumcised on the following Wednesday. Keep in mind that Jewish days begin at sunset, so if the child is born on a Wednesday evening, he is circumcised the following Thursday. Circumcisions are performed on Shabbat (the sabbath), even though they involve the drawing of blood which is ordinarily forbidden on Shabbat. The Bible does not specify a reason for the choice of the eighth day; however, modern medicine has revealed that an infant's blood clotting mechanism stabilizes on the eighth day after birth. As with almost any commandment, circumcision can be postponed for health reasons. Jewish law provides that where the child's health is at issue, circumcision must wait until seven days after a doctor declares the child healthy enough to undergo the procedure.

Circumcision involves surgically removing the foreskin of the penis. The circumcision is performed by a mohel (lit. circumciser; rhymes with oil), a pious, observant Jew educated in the relevant Jewish law and in surgical techniques. Circumcision performed by a regular physician does not qualify as a valid brit milah, regardless of whether a rabbi says a blessing over it, because the removal of the foreskin is itself a religious ritual that must be performed by someone religiously qualified.

If the child is born without a foreskin (it happens occasionally), or if the child was previously circumcised without the appropriate religious intent or in a manner that rendered the circumcision religiously invalid, a symbolic circumcision may be performed by taking a pinprick of blood from the tip of the penis. This is referred to as hatafat dam brit.

While the circumcision is performed, the child is held by a person called a sandek. In English, this is often referred to as a godfather. It is an honor to be a sandek for a bris. The sandek is usually a grandparent or the family rabbi. Traditionally, a chair (often an ornate one) is set aside for Elijah, who is said to preside over all circumcisions. Various blessings are recited, including one over wine, and a drop of wine is placed in the child's mouth. The child is then given a formal Hebrew name.

HazleNutt · 02/07/2012 13:54

So VanCamp, you believe that having those disgusting icky sweaty labia removed would enhance the quality of your life?

AllYoursBabooshka · 02/07/2012 13:55

Yy Krumbum.

Boob jobs if the mother is a little flat chested, Just to be on the safe side. That will enhance the childs life.

Krumbum · 02/07/2012 13:55

How does it enhance quality of life?
A lot of circumcisions are not even done by doctors, let alone with anaesthetic!

VanCampsPorknBeans · 02/07/2012 13:56

I can't win here. So, I'll step away now. Clearly, there are a lot of women who will tolerate foreskin on men and some others who will not.

Moominsarescary · 02/07/2012 13:56

I don't see how the lack of a foreskin improves the quality of your life

AllYoursBabooshka · 02/07/2012 13:58

Because they are minging Moomin! :(

Girls won't like it! :(

VanCampsPorknBeans · 02/07/2012 14:00

Oh brother! Moomin and Krum The word "if" at the top of the second phrase qualifies each of the points following. Do I really have to explain that?