To approve of a German courts decision re circumcision

[SlipperyNipple]

Apologies if this has already been covered.

I am Jewish by descent but an an agnostic. I think the time has come to say that being religious is not an excuse to carry out mutilation of small boys.

www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jun/27/circumcision-ruling-germany-muslim-jewish?newsfeed=true

Obviously Female circumcision is already illegal but the same protection should be given to boys.

crescentmoon: "actually, alot of research has been done on risk compensation following male circumcision as adults - so that takes out the jewish or muslim men and their socio cultural norms - and they found the majority of men following a circumcision under a HIV prevention drive actually take greater precautions in their sexual behaviour - use condoms, have less sexual partners, "

Well, let's hope that's true. It doesn't alter the fundamental point, though - it's a bit of a side issue.

I would like it to be banned and that's not based on prejudice about religion. As plenty of people on this thread have also expressed.

Just because ONE pressure group has questionable motives for being against it (and I agree that comic is horrendous and should have no place) it doesn't mean you can extrapolate those motives to everyone who is against the same practice, especially when they've taken the time to lay out their reasons in a calm and reasoned manner. It's just rude.

at what this thread has turned into.

Religious circumcisions are not conducted without anaesthetic and with a fingernail (WTAF?) or by taking the penis into the mouth (WHERE THE HELL DO YOU PEOPLE GET THIS INFO FROM?!!!)

sausage that page you have linked is written and hosted by someone called Silas who want Muslims to turn into Christians!! Ofcourse he's going write bad things about Islam. Linking hateful and most importantly biased pages like that is a bit dim. .

New York City Health Department
healthland.time.com/2012/06/07/how-11-new-york-city-babies-contracted-herpes-through-circumcision/

"or by taking the penis into the mouth (WHERE THE HELL DO YOU PEOPLE GET THIS INFO FROM?!!!)"

Metzitzah b'peh.

Wow...you really have to search for those don't you? I wouldn't have thought it.

If some one wants to convert muslims or not doesn't change the fact the teachings preach something the average person would see as unacceptable. Certainly there are clerics that have preached this in the UK recently (cannot remember the name but he is tied in with the council in Tower Hamlets. And as a mother the thought of doing anything to a child without a medical need (and the UK medical profession don't see a generic need) is something I see as unacceptable.

My DH went through a circumcision for medical reasons last year and it was painful after the operation, at least he was old enough to be able to explain the pain he was in. I don't expect small boys to be able to tell parents how much pain they went through which is why it is done so young. Yes I know it is more painful for adults but can we really sit here and say that children are not suffering just because they can't vocalise it.

You can kid yourself all you like that the posters on here have some prejudice against religion. I'm afraid that it's just that we haven't been conditioned to think circumcision for no good reason is acceptable and can see it for what it really is, unnecessary and barbaric.

I know. My father is Jewish. It's got nothing to do with religion. I'm sick of babies being abused for such shallow, horrible reasons.

Brings a tear to my eye.

crescentmoon: this is what the WHO website says:

"WHO/UNAIDS recommendations emphasize that male circumcision should be considered an efficacious intervention for HIV prevention in countries and regions with heterosexual epidemics, high HIV and low male circumcision prevalence."

Note that it isn't recommending male circumcision in countries where those factors don't apply. In a country such as Germany (or indeed the UK), where there is no heterosexual HIV epidemic, there is no good preventative reason to practise circumcision on male infants. Medical advice in the UK is that the dangers outweigh the benefits. So what, then, is the argument in favour?

I think the argument is 'I like how it looks, my child is more hygienic, blah blah blah.'

crescentmoon: "yet we still carry out widespread vaccinations on small babies against those diseases that are very uncommon in the UK."

Well, they're uncommon precisely because of the vaccination programme! I can't believe you're seriously comparing a vaccination programme to wipe out major contagious diseases such as polio with a procedure such as circumcision that has much smaller (and in some cases disputed) benefits.

sashh And one done by a Mohel or Iman involves anaesthetic and doesn't involve using a fingernail or taking the penis into their mouths. Your prejudice is showing and it's sick and twisted. A religious one usually involves the child being held in a blanket rather than strapped to a board (the common way done to babies in American hospitals outside of Jewish and Muslim groups), but that's the only significant difference in the procedure.

How dare you? You consider ME sick and predjudiced. Just for one second think about where I got this information. Because it wasn't from the internet.

It may not be the case for all Jews, but it is for many, and as far as I am concerned just one child having his foreskin cut with a finger nail and his penis being put into the mouth of an adult is one too many.

An anesthetised child does not need to be strapped down. If babies are anesthetised for a religeous circumcision why do they cry?

Is a blanket sterile? Is the Mohel wearing gloves? The instrument frequently used in hospitals removes the foreskin without spilling blood, that makes it unacceptable for a Jewish circumcision. I'm sorry I only have limited experience of Muslim circumcision so I cannot comment.

Follow the links and then tell me I'm sick.

wn.com/Rabbi_Explains_the_Process_of_Sucking_Blood_From_the_Penis_During_Circumcision

www.koltorah.org/ravj/Contemporary_Brit_Milah_Issues_2.html

The Jewish ones I know off were not done with anaesthetic. One mum (the coverted jew) said it was awful

I'm only up to page 4 of this thread, but this situation creates some real dilemmas for me as a religious Jew.

Circumcision is a barbaric practice and it isn't right that babies don't get a say in what happens to them. Circumcision at an older age would be ideal, where the boy gets to decide for himself.

BUT in Judaism, circumcision is making a covenant between man and G-d and marks the entry of a Jewish boy into his community/the Jewish people. I believe in G-d, so I believe this, despite not liking the practice. If you believe that G-d created the world/people etc, then it's possible to believe that it's something G-d asked Jews to do.

A boy formally enters the Jewish people at 13 with a bar mitzvah and can't do this without a circumcision. I feel that at 13, this still wouldn't be something a boy would get to decide on himself or may face coercion and at 13 it's a more complex procedure with a longer recovery time. As an adult it also takes a long time and is a more complex procedure. Babies heal quickly - initial healing is very quick these days thanks to a new bandage which stops bleeding immediately and heals up overall within days - not a justification, just a fact.

I am sure there are some Jewish boys/men who would have liked to have made the decision for themselves, but having discussed this at length with men who had it done as babies, some of whom are now having babies of their own, they are 100% happy that they had it done. They believe in G-d and believe it marks their covenant with Him and they would have it done now if their parents had decided not to. On the other hand, I appreciate that some men don't agree, but given the further religious implications, it makes most sense to circumcise as we do now, 8 days after a baby is born.

I am also comforted by the fact that many ritual circumcisers (did I just make up that word? I.e. people who perform the procedure) are trained doctors from many different medical backgrounds such as paediatrics, eye surgery and GPs with other additional medical strings to their bow. They all believe in the practice and see no medical/ethical dilemmas, just that they are maintaining the practice of this age old covenant with G-d, which they perform with the utmost of care for the babies and with the highest standards.

I don't like it, but thinking through all of the ifs, whens and buts, I have to accept religiously that the best solution is to maintain the status quo. Banning it is only going to create more problems.

I am a Jewish mum, who has had both her sons circumcised. I am happy to answer any questions people have about circumcision.

Why did you do it cookiewise?

Krumbum

Because we are a Jewish family, it is an important religious and cultural tradition for us and all the males in our family/religion have been circumcised as part of this tradition going back centuries.

Nature provides a foreskin for a reason. Leave it alone until they can decide as an adult whether to keep it or remove it.

American's are obsessed with circumcising their boys. They think foreskins are unhygienic. Silly people.