The grand national is cruel to horses

[McHappyPants2012]

Alot of the horses will be injured and whipped into going faster, it's also a long race course.

I can't believe people would bet on this event

Marne - I meant they don't show them on the tv before the race and go on about the them changing. This shows to me it's more about money than anything.

I just think that taking the line that other cruelties happen (you use the example of pet ownership, which I feel is a bit of a stretch) as a justification for yet another one is the wrong line to take.

And to make this argument in the context of your previous line "it was a great afternoon" when people are discussing the deaths of horses - well I'm afraid that lends you less credibility in my opinion.

As a former horse owner for many years (and I don't think that's the case for those expressing the strongest 'anti' arguments on here). Without expressing a view either for or against the race, here are my thoughts:

I strongly believe that most of those horses go out to race excited and absolutely loving it. They revel in galloping and jumping and enjoy trying to get ahead of the others. This is what I have found in my own experience - even when getting really tired the horse doesn't want to stop.

The ones who are fatally injured had no concept that this was coming - they couldn't worry that they would die - they know no more about it (less in fact) than the cow led to the slaughter house for us to eat.

Set against that - I abhor over use of the whip. Carrying one keeps racing safer but there is no need to beat the horses and if they're not in contention or already winning then hitting them isn't allowed anyway.

I'd be more concerned for the 'wastage' - the young horses that don't make the grade and end up on a lorry to the continent for horsemeat - than I would be about the horses on the racecourse today.

Mayisout - i see your point but there's a big difference. I think if people want to keep animals as pets then this is fine as long as they're treated BRILLIANTLY and aren't exotic creatures that are well out of their habitats.
I don't disagree with people owning and riding horses at all. I disagree with this race.
I'm a dog owner - if there was a competition were my dogs could enter but there's a risk of them breaking their legs and dying I wouldn't put them in it. I would want it banned.
But it's different for horses?

I'm not hearing that any jockeys were found guilty of whip infringements

'"This is the second year running that two horses have died. In its current format, the risks to horses are not appropriate and we want an urgent examination of the Grand National, including a number of fences including Beecher's Brook where horses are continuing to die despite safety improvements.

"It would appear the whip was overused in the final stages of the race. If that is the case it is totally unacceptable and given the narrow margin of the win I believe the result should be reversed."

Also, I've read up on the whip rules and they were definetly infringed.

I think if no jockey is sanctioned over the whip today then it would actually make the rules look like a joke. Which isn't in the best interests of the sport of kings.

Honestly it's not carrying a whip that's the problem - it's the use of it to beat the horse. I promise you I'm a horse lover totally soppy about my animals but I consider it almost essential to carry a whip when riding. It's an 'aid' to control. I've seen horses with swollen bruised sides from being kicked too hard, or weals down their sides where they've been raked by spurs. And that's at cross-country or show jumping events, not racing.

Most people who work with horses love them - there are always those who abuse them.

As a committee member of a local riding club I had to speak to people occasionally about over use of whips and spurs. Most were mortifies - a few told me to fuck off and mind my own business.

Harvey Smith apparently used to put live electric wires on his practice jumps at home.

Another show jump rider was banned for life after smashing a horse's front legs with a sledgehammer to claim the insurance.

Re: today's whip use - I think it's hard to tell on tv whether contact is being made. 'Showing' the horse the whip can look exactly like hitting it. You'd probably need a slow-motion close up camera to be able to tell whether abuse had taken place.

No. One of the jockeys was definitely using it.

Well that was the bigest PR fuckup of the year so far. I'm betting the Grand National will never run in its current form again.

Pooka, I don't think I was justifying cruelty, just pointing out that there is an awful lot of it when it comes to animal treatment (though much less in the UK than other countries) and picking on one aspect that 'should be banned' is being in denial about all the other stuff that goes on. For example people say 'I love my dog' and you find out it is hardly ever walked, teased to death by their kids, fat due to bad diet and will probably die young.
But that's ok because they 'love' it.
Race horses are bred to race and watching the race is exciting. If this is cruel then race horses should not be bred, so no more race horses. But nor should the dog owner be allowed to keep their dog.

The bottom line for me is that 'animal lovers' pick on some aspect eg horses dying during races, greyhounds being put down once their racing life is over, which there is no denying can be described as cruel, but refuse to accept that the fact they keep a hunting dog in a multi storey flat, or cats cooped up in a house, or chuck their cats out to survive as best they can each night, basically, they do what suits the human owner and not the pet, yet consider themselves animal lovers and see that behaviour as completely acceptable.

I just want more honesty.

Sorry fortyplus I don't have a crystal ball or anything, I mean it's what is really looked like to me.

I have a very small tv! I didn't see anything untoward but the jockey will face a ban if over use is ruled to have taken place. I think it would have to be pretty extreme to change a result.

Thank you for your input fortyplus as I really needed to read the thoughts of someone who knows horses and is experienced in keeping them.

Despite the tragedy of today (and I am still upset about the thought of these two horses drying) it is useful to know that they go out excited and keen to race.

I am desperately upset about the thought of the stable boys and girls who will be going home with empty horse boxes. There is no doubt that they love these horses and will mourn their loss.

I do think it's particularly unfortunate that the horse that was so excited it unseated his jockey and went for a jolly round the course ended up getting fatally injured after carrying on running after he fell off in the race. He looked such a character and was clearly enjoying himself.

Thanks Codandchops!

Once again for another year I feel utterly bewildered, furious, disgusted and sickened beyond belief that people can support in any way this foul institution.

Would we watch human beings being run to death for sport?

We would not.

So why is it ok for horses?

I've counted KW giving her horse six smacks between last fence and winning post. Other times whip was just being waved in air no contact made.
Daryl Jacob six possibly seven
third placed two possibly three
rules say
Rather than it being an automatic breach when a rider uses the whip eight times on the Flat and nine times over jumps, the figures become the trigger point for the stewards to review the ride in question.

Mayisout I'm not keen on pets either.

Rather than it being an automatic breach when a rider uses the whip eight times on the Flat and nine times over jumps, the figures become the trigger point for the stewards to review the ride in question.

Seems like not much of a rule then, if this not-a-rule is seriously intended to fend off criticism of whip use.

Doesn't the race industry get it that it actually has to do something?

My ex racer (dog) loves to run. It's absolutely in his nature, and seeing him run and enjoy himself is truly beautiful and a joy to watch.

However, the intensive training, racing and high speed accidents he sustained over the course of his career have left him with arthritis at the age of 4. And he's one of the lucky ones, having made it through the dangers of racing and found an adoptive home instead of ending up straying or mutilated or worse when he was no longer of value to his trainer and owner. It's impossible for me to find beauty or enjoyment in racing knowing the issues these animals face later in life as a result of their working lives.

Rules in full

1. The revised rules take effect from tomorrow, Tuesday 6th March. Rather than rules based solely on a fixed number, stewards will focus more on how the whip is used and be able to apply their discretion when considering a rider?s use of the whip.

1. The trigger for stewards to review a rider?s use of the whip remains the existing figures of eight times or more for Flat races and nine times or more for Jump races. However, rather than such use representing an automatic breach, the stewards will look at the ride and decide whether or not to hold an enquiry.

1. When deciding whether to hold an enquiry the stewards will consider the rider?s use the whip during the course of the entire race, with particular attention to its use in the closing stages and relevant factors such as:

a) The manner in which the whip was used, including the degree of force;
b) The purpose for which the whip was used;
c) The distance over which the whip was used and whether the number of times it was used was reasonable and necessary;
d) Whether the horse was continuing to respond.

1. Provided that the overall manner in which the whip had been used was measured, stewards may choose to disregard occasions when the whip was used, for example:

a) To keep a horse in contention or to maintain a challenging position prior to what would be considered the closing stages of a race;
b) To maintain a horse?s focus and concentration;
c) To correct a horse that is noticeably hanging;
d) Where there is only light contact with the horse;
e) Following a mistake at an obstacle;
f) To correct a horse that is running down an obstacle;

1. Under the revised penalties (already implemented), a rider found to have used his whip once over the permitted level will be suspended for two days, two times over will incur a four day suspension and three times over a seven day suspension, with each extra usage adding two days to the penalty.

1. Previous offences are not to be taken into account when deciding on the level of penalty. Offences which incur a suspension of two to six days are to be treated separately from those offences that incur a suspension of seven days or more.

1. Under a revised referral process repeat offenders will be referred to the Disciplinary Panel and incur a lengthy suspension (see penalty guidelines). Riders will be referred after their fifth offence of a two to six day ban within the previous six months, or after their fourth offence of seven days or more within the previous six months.

1. It is generally accepted that the incentive to breach the rules is greater in more valuable races. Consequently stewards will have the ability to impose a fine on a rider between £200 and £10,000. This will apply in Jump races worth £20,000 or more and Flat races worth £27,500 or more. Stewards will consider the gravity of the offence and the rider?s earnings in that particular race when identifying the appropriate level of fine.

Fortyplus, re your post about your own whip further down: There are several types of whip and an NH whip isn't the sort with leather flaps that crack together making a sound. It's the long cushioned fibreglass stick type, which I believe probably hurts the horse far more than a couple of bits of leather flapping around.