to think that bankers who sue take legal action to protect their bonuses should ...

[MmeReindor]

be made to live in a grotty mouldy B&B for a month, so they can see the consequences of their actions. There are people who have lost their jobs because of the recession, who have lost their home, lost everything.

And the bankers still insist on a bonus. On top of their already well paid job?

I am speechless.

The Guardian reports today that this may happen.

Already in Germany, the Commerzbank is facing a legal challenge from its subsiduary, DresdenKleinwort

The bankers claim that Commerzbank, which bought Dresdner Kleinwort, should have honoured an agreement to provide a ?400m bonus pool for 2008. Dresdner Kleinwort reported a ?6.3bn loss for 2008, which Commerzbank believes changed its commitment to the bankers

What really gets my goat is the comment about taxes, from a think tank.

City bonuses are expected to total £4.2bn in 2011, down 38% on the £6.7bn paid out last year, ... will generate about £2.5bn for the Treasury, ... this is still some distance ...from the £6.8bn collected in the peak of 2007-08, clearly illustrating how the taxpayer also misses out when the City pays lower bonuses,"

How in the name of all that is holy, does that even make a bit of sense?

We bail the banks out with taxpayers' money, but should be grateful that we are getting £2.5bn back - if we even get it back, as no doubt some of it will vanish in an off-shore bank account, or via shady tax avoidance.

yes, 'bonuses' suggest that you've done something for the good.

of course once there is a nice healthy comprehensive nationalisation of the banks then we won't have to send good money after bad. The people who 'threaten' us with taking their business elsewhere wouldn't be able to do any such thing - it's a market, not dependent on individuals or personalities.

So they are hated because they made enormous profits and took a cut of them

lol. No. They're hated because made enormous errors, destroyed the worlds finances and still took / expect a huge bonus .

Yabu and banker bashing is getting really tedious. there are fairly strict UK and eu rules now on bonuses but more importantly a fall in profits is sharply curbing the old bonus culture. financial services are still the golden goose for taxes though ...

financial services are still the golden goose for taxes though

Classic.

Barclays Bank has been forced to admit it paid just £113m in UK corporation tax in 2009 ? a year when it rang up a record £11.6bn of profits.

link

was that PA/ irritating simile at me deep pan? if so no idea why you think I said bonus' were for the greater good.

Look no offence but I think most of us realise that banker bashers are generally sun reading hysteria monkeys who wouldn't know the first thing about banking if banking threw a brick in their face and smushed it around.

yy pasta

Just what I was about to post.

What caused the credit crunch, and then the recession, is that the banks suddenly realised that a lot of the money they had lent - to homeowners, to people wanting personal loans, to companies, to governments - was unlikely ever to get paid back.

Whose fault is that? Yes, you could say it's the banks' fault for having lent that money in the first place. They should have said no.

But bear in mind that if they had said no, we'd all have been a lot poorer over the past 10 years especially anyone who has relied on government services and benefits, or on credit, or on any profit from their house price increasing. All these things would have been a lot leaner without the excess of credit.

IMO it's really the fault of those who borrowed more than they could afford to repay. Including the UK government - who should have known better.

no Serenity not at you in particular at all. Just observing the irony of bonuses being claimed during one massive feck up. Paying out to 'save' the banking system is one thing, but being told to pay up further ( in my case to RBS) to cover bonus payments is taking the piss rather.

Look no offence but I think most of us realise that banker bashers are generally sun reading hysteria monkeys

What an ignorant stupid thing to say.

yes we keep getting told that banking people are frightfully bright.

er..really? Could we have some of them on this thread please? Or.. are we witnessing another bankers bluff?

so you do not have a problem that tax you have paid has gone to save banks now those same banks are still paying their staff very high wages plus a bonus rather than being able to put more money into the nhs and education

or they just constantly provide links continuiously which noone can be arsed to read....

Nationalisation of the banks?! What planet are you on?!

Oh lovely, the bi monthly Banker Bash. Interesting that benefit bashers are regularly banned yet Banker Bashing is sport on mn.

I think it is safe to say this thread has now stepped into realms of ridiculousness that we cannot recover from. Off to read some good MIL bashing instead.

"Look no offence but I think most of us realise that banker bashers are generally sun reading hysteria monkeys"

oh planet Sane coral. Traders and investment types do their usual duties - payment dependent on performance - still lots of chance to make small fortunes for individuals but the values made are re-invested for the public good etc. As someone says, most traders etc are on employment contracts with banks, so no problem there then. Such an important part of our national economy shouldn't be left in such precarious hands as they have been shown to be.

now some people here will say 'that's outlandish/outrageous'it'll never work' etc. But then they would say that, not becuase it wouldn't but because it challenges the vested interests of the system. Do you think DC would go for it?

I think it is safe to say this thread has now stepped into realms of sanityridiculousness that I can't deal with we cannot recover from.

Bank nationalisation has a healthy debating history behind it - ecomomists put it fwd often as a way of dealing with the 'poor assets' that banks currently hold. (and a payment by results system that is being driven into the public sector would deal nicely with the 'bonus' problem.)

"Look no offence but I think most of us realise that banker bashers are generally sun reading hysteria monkeys who wouldn't know the first thing about banking if banking threw a brick in their face and smushed it around."

Is that it? Is that how you reply to this?

And they wonder why bankers are hated in UK.

I can see that there are some TRADERS who are sharp as a tack and stressed to the max, but I know enough bankers to know that that is not always the case.

There are plenty who I see picking up their kids from school, or going later to work than my DH. Some of them are quite clever, but one or two of them are utter idiots.

My DH is quite a clever chap. Works in finance (not banking) and they have had a terrible year. Why? Because the government subsidised banks are offering cheaper finance than his company can ever hope to do.

His bonus was cut, although the drop in profit was caused by the banks.

No, I am not naive, and I don't put all the blame of the financial crisis on the banks. I know that it is more complex than that.

But to accept the bailout and then carry on, business as usual. That takes some hard neck.

It is disgusting that these people are allowed any bonus at all. The government should have been v strict on this at the time of the bail out of the banks/ financial institutions but it didn't suit them to be because they rub shoulders with these people all the time!

A bonus is something that an employee earns for doing a particularly good job, hitting higher targets than expected, etc. Senior bankers have done the v opposite of this. Their appalling greed and serious errors of judgement have been one factor in causing this recession and putting many people in this and other country into severe financial difficulties.

What was that about people with the broadest shoulders DC?

Barclays Bank has been forced to admit it paid just £113m in UK corporation tax in 2009 ? a year when it rang up a record £11.6bn of profits.

OMG, not again. That piece of 'news' was based on some very dodgy arithematic, ignoring obvious things like facts and other inconvenient truths. In fact the original author of that report was widely rounded upon for a piece of work which was at best sloppy, at worst knowingly incorrect.

Most of Barclays profits are made throughout the world and naturally the bank will have paid taxes at the relevent rates in the countries the profits were made in. It's simply unfair to count tax paid in the UK and compare it to profits made worldwide since you've completely ignored all the other taxes paid elsewhere. It would be akin to me accusing you of being a tax dodger by only looking at the money you paid in council tax and comparing it to your gross salary.

Plus the tax due in 2009 was for 'profits' made during 2008 when erm....there was this rather big banking crash and many banks made a huge loss. And we can't tax losses can we? The following year where it made 'record' profits, those taxes wouldn't have been due until 2010. In short, they weren't even comparing the right years!

It helps to have a wider and better read view than jumping on the Guardian bandwagon whom at the moment just seem like the left wing version of the Daily Mail to me.

Oh and the huge 'tax dodge' they were accused of using? It was the very same one which the the Guardian group also used. Funny how they didn't include that in their article isn't it?

Mme,

I think you make some fair points.

What, however, would you say to a trader or desk head who is continuing to do his job as he has always done so, working hard and diligently?

There are a small cadre of very senior bankers who have behaved, in my view, incredibly cynically. Bob Diamond epitomises these. It is crazy resenting those bankers who have no input into what the company pays in bonuses.

What is certainly true is that there seems to be a disconnect between those at the top and everyone else. That is not just true in banking but all spheres of public and corporate life. The multiple of the average salary that senior management pays itself has been growing exponentially for about 20 years. There will come a time when it will cause societal problems. Some think that time has already come.

Actually I can see arguments in favour of a nationalised (or at least highly regulated, limited-profit, etc) retail banking industry.

It would go back to the old fashioned business of (1) holding money on deposit and (2) making loans to SMEs and individuals. The money it makes on loans would be used to cover costs, and pay interest to the savers. Maybe a bit of profit too, if it's not fully nationalised.

Everything else that the banks currently do - the trading and investment banking side of things - would be for private companies to do. And if they get into trouble doing so, they would go to the wall. No need to bail them out as they wouldn't be holding anyone's deposits.

Can anyone with more knowledge than me tell me what is wrong with this picture?

Larry
I would say to them the same thing that my DH's boss told his team.

"Guys, I am sorry. I know you have worked hard but the company has not done well this year, through no fault of this team, but that is the way it is."

If bonuses are paid as compensation for reaching a specific target - and this is the way that most companies operate - then it is accepted that if target is not met then there is no bonus.

The scandal is that the government did not make this a term of the deal.

As a public sector worker, I look forward not only to being 'brought in line with the private sector' (provided this means suing for breach of contract etc), but to the unwavering support of all those who are outraged at the change in bankers' T&C