To wonder how people manage AP when they have a toddler and a newborn? and not much help?

[titferbrains]

Have spent most of last 4 weeks with baby in my arms, feeding, sleeping, passing baby to another person's arms, or with him in a sling. He has periods of being content and awake, lying in pram or on mat etc, but when tired he needs to be held and preferably fed a bit then cuddled for a bit before we can put him down.

AP principles are lovely for your PFB when you have lots of time and energy to give, but how do people manage when you have a 2nd or more? My DH is not around to help in the evenings, my DD is unwell and needs medicine, extra stories and cuddles atm, and puts up a fight before she goes to sleep. I have been feeding ds while I do story but it's pretty uncomfortable holding a book and trying to stop dd from "patting" Ds.

Am not about to go cold turkey and let DS CIO, but would love to know how people manage toddler and tinies in a kind way. I tried to swaddle DS and put him in his cot (he normally sleeps with us) this eve and I made sure to (safely) make him feel cosy with a rolled up towel and my nightshirt next to him, but after a quick feed, low lighting and music, I put him down and he went from calm to rage in about 10 seconds or less!

Do you have a clever routine/solution?

[bumbleymummy]

Good post kungfu

[LaWeasel]

It's funny really, I honestly thought I would be the AP type, but as well as DD just being a fiercely independent soul from birth - I found it quite claustrophobic, especially co-sleeping which I absolutely hated.

It's definately all about finding what works for you and your circumstances and the kind of child you have.

Not sure what I will do if DC2 is a velcro baby!

[titferbrains]

I have never read any books on CIO or AP, just read about these things online etc. I am not a devotee of anything, I just find that I'm leaning towards an AP approach and am interested to see how other people manage that with more than one. So rika tks for helpful post! Am already putting him on his side and have read about using fleece/warming mattress, no time this eve tho. Interesting to see if he does sleep after all that ...

mrsbt congrats to u too! Hope u are enjoying yr baby boy.

[discrete]

I found that allowing ds1 to climb all over us when I was bfing ds2 was very helpful.

And lots of slinging.

And lots of remembering that it's only for a few months, before you know it he will be walking....

[MrsMooo]

What Kung Fu said

Why post on a thread asking about how people manage to AP deriding it? The OP wanted advice because that style suited her with DS1 so what does it acheive to criticise it?

Just follow your instincts, involving DS1 is also a good tactic. DS2 will get used to being patted too :) You're doing a fab job, my sister is in your position but her boys are now 4.5 and 3, and she has said the th AP style has really helped her cope

I personally don't like the term AP, but it's what suits some (myself included), is practiced across the world and is the traditional style of many many cultures, people do it with twins and triplets and often say it's easier as it can b a more fluid style of parenting. Seriously ignore the critisims if it works for you

If it's not your bag, fair enough but no need to mock those who do it

[TandB]

OP, if you are confident using a sling you might want to try back-carrying. I know someone who back-carried from a few days old and found it incredibly useful when dealing with her older child - you are completely hands free and can do things like cooking much more easily.

I am intending to try it with this next baby.

[titferbrains]

Actually dd endlessly in my facewhile I bf is really doing my head in, it's very hard not to push her away from ds. She adores him and just likes to fiddle with him, she has zero sense of personal space...

[bonkers20]

I recommend getting a couple of really good slings! Look after your back!

[BobblyGussets]

Whilst the term AP is a bit cringe inducing, the principle is very practical. I would have been far happier co-sleeping all the time with DS2 because he had me up and down too much during the night for 18 months or so. I got upset, angry, felt suicidal, rowed with DH (he wanted me in bed with him, but not DS2) and although DS2 is a great sleeper now and is 3 and a half, I feel sad looking back at the time now passed. You never get the time back, so if it means you enjoy your baby more by "making a rod for your own back" then do it.

CIO is dangerous for a young baby. That is why cot death instances have reduced so much: CIO is no longer fashionable thank goodness.

DS 1 had me up and down out of bed when he was 10 months old. After about the 15th time, I was fed up so left him to grizzle (not proper bawling even). I still feel guilty about this now, because when I came into him in the morning he was lying in some vomit. I wish I hadn't, but you can see how in a young baby, who was unable to turn over, this could be fatal.

[wompoopigeon]

Titfer, I don't have specific advice as I won't be in your situation with two DC until early next year but I can safely assure you that about the only thing I am sure about is that if anyone tells me I am making a rod for my own back, I know I can safely ignore every other thing that they say. It is one of my most hated expressions. My mother, of all people, used to say it whenever I comforted my crying child... Grrrrrr. Yes you need to balance your needs and your baby's needs and your toddler's needs, but it's about finding a happy compromise that works for you, not panicking about rods and bad habits and spoiled 4 week olds. I think we should be waving MN pompoms of support in your general direction.

[Papyrus]

DD3 is three weeks and absolutely screams the house down if she's not being held or in sling. I'm lucky as I have my sister staying with us at the moment and she's a brilliant help and DD1 is eight and loves holding her sister while watching tv etc. I can't imagine what hell it must be not to have anyone to pass the baby to every now and then.

My DD2 has just turned 3 and is finding it quite hard to adjust to the new baby and has become very clingy towards me; luckily DD3 isn't fussy about who holds her as long as she is being held. But I hope DD2 feels a bit more secure soon as I feel I never have any personal space to myself at the moment.

[TimeWasting]

Apparently my Mum tried to leave me to CIO once when I was quite little and when she eventually went in the cot had half collapsed and I was rolled up in the corner.
Needless to say, I have always and will always attend to a crying baby having heard that story before.

[MrsJasonBourne]

You really have to wait and see what your baby is like before you make all these plans in your head. My children were completely different from one another in so many respects and what works with one will not work with the other. Don't beat yourself up if something doesn't work, this is a new little person and they will very quickly let you know.

And can we please stop using all these tarty new acronyms? (old gimmer emoticon)

[titferbrains]

Mn is awash with tarty acronyms, I figured that people wd only respond to my thread if they knew what I was talking about.

[SlinkingOutsideInSocks]

I firmly believe there is nothing you can do in the first three months/so-called '4th trimester' that will form bad habits and make a blasted rod for your back. Babies are too young at that age to comprehend repeated patterns - they just want warmth, comfort, food and love. They and you need to do whatever it takes to keep you all placated.

I wish someone had told me this when I had DC1. I was so hung up on that bloody rod that I made myself (and probably DS at times :( ) miserable. I was much more go with the flow with DC2 as I had a bit of knowledge, confidence and faith in my own instincts.

There's 18 months between my two, so I really did have to do whatever it took and found that I was much more AP with No. 2 than with No.1, co-sleeping and slinging with gay abandon. I was so sure that DS would never move out of our bed that I just couldn't ever bring myself to co-sleep, but with a babe and a toddler, I needed sleep at night time, so did what it took. I used to sit up to bfeed DS and then spend forever settling him back into his Moses basket (admittedly right next to me) - I got no sleep, night after night, as I was doing all the feeds. It was horrendous. With DD I lay her next to me to feed and we both drifted back off.

Once your baby gets past the three month point then, at least IMO, it probably does pay to try to ingrain good habits and wean them off associations (being fed or rocked to sleep, for example), just to make life easier in the long run. But again, whatever works for one won't necessarily work for another.

[StepfordWannabe]

CIO is dangerous for a young baby. That is why cot death instances have reduced so much: CIO is no longer fashionable thank goodness.

BobblyGussets - have you any facts to back up this outrageous statement? SIDS is rarely, if ever, due to babies choking on their own vomit (I'm pretty sure this would happen pretty silently as opposed to bawling their eyes out)

[MothInMyKecks]

Can't remember where I read it, but I remember reading about increased cortisol levels or something when a baby is left consistently to CIO, causing undue stress levels to rocket, and blood pressure levels to rise.

I never left any of mine to CIO, but felt more that I should be responding to their needs, when they weren't able to vocalise them.

Good post Kung Fu, I agree wholeheartedly.

And, as another who never read a parenting book in her life (apart from the usual stuff given by MW, and that book 'What to expect in the first year of their life' or something or other, I think I'd probably fall into this type of parenting, because it's what I've instinctively done; co-slept, ext BF, used slings, never used CIO (the thought of it makes me shudder if I'm honest).

2 slings were my god-sends and one of them was a back sling which I started to use when youngest was about 4 weeks - still have it now in airing cupboard ready for when I'm a Grannie

[MothInMyKecks]

On a vainer note, using slings instead of prams has given me leg muscles of steel

[Tortoiseinadarkspell]

Titfer, my second hasn't quite arrived yet, but I parent similarly to you, so I'm going to throw in my opinion anyway.

Four weeks old isn't an indication of anything, and just as you can't make a sodding rod for your back, you also have some leeway in terms of developing the dynamic between the two of them and you.

I have a friend who was very, very AP with her first, and then 18 months later had twins. So she said that right from the start, she had to parent them differently just for logistical purposes. Including leaving them to cry, a bit, simply because at that point she had two infants and a young toddler who wasn't sleeping through, and therefore couldn't attend to all of them at once. But as all three girls got older, and it got easier, she was able to reintroduce a lot of the things that worked with the eldest even though she couldn't do them originally. She ended up breastfeeding the twins for well over two years, the whole family do a sort of co-sleeping thing where there's a big mattress and some smaller ones pushed together on the floor so the girls sleep on their own but can join the parents when they want to, etc.

Some of that might not be your style. It's not all mine. But what I mean is that four weeks old is tough and brutal no matter what, and if you don't feel like you're attachment parenting perfectly - well, no-one feels like they're getting parenting right at this point! I think you're doing brilliantly, actually.

[GotArt]

OP... I thought the same thing a few weeks ago, about coping with two little ones like you. DD1 is 2.10 and DD2 is 4 months. Its still hell some nights at bath time for DD1 with 2 crying through drying off and teeth brushing and all that, but it seems to now have leveled out a bit. DD2 is in the sling most of the day and usually at bathtime for DD1 but I did a few times just wrap DD2 up and laid her in our bed (we co-sleep) and left her crying to go and read DD1's bed book. I have found that every single minute I am able to be alone with DD1, I make the most of it and do whatever she wants to and I make a point of saying how lovely it is to be able to do stuff with just the two of us. I talk to her about her sister, and tell her that it won't always be like this, that her sister will grow up like her and they can play together... that sort of thing. It is getting better as DD2 fits into the routine. But I still have days where I feel like I'm not coping, then next thing you know, its bedtime and you can sleep, ( ) and start a new day of new adventures with toddler and infant.

[activate]

I am old and weary - my 4 children are aged from 17 to 7 so I have been doing it for years (quite succesfully if I look at the children and how they are turning out)

This is my take on it

You cannot spoil a baby but you can spoil your own experience of parenting them if you set yourself loads of rules.

Children roll with it - as long as you do your best, love them it will all be OK

So if you want to carry your baby round in a sling for the first few months, do it

if you don't, don't

But please don't set yourself rules because as long as you do your best you can't fail - this includes those moments when you lose it and have to walk away

In the end it's the love you show, the care you provide and the interest you have in your children that makes you a good enough parent

It's not the I am this kind of parent so this is what I must do - change is good, do what works for you

[GotArt]

activate

[Allboxedin]

I agree with activate, I really don't see how you can 'plan' how to parent as each baby is different as is each experience. We will all get critisised from time to time on our parenting but as long as we trust ourselves to do our best even with it's ups and downs I don't think we can do much better.
Baby n2 on the way next week so I am certainly no expert but I havent made any plans on how I will parent, I am still learning with dc1 who will be 2 years next week. For me prehaps luckily a very independant child who was quite happy not to be carried around as I had a bad back for months after the birth so I simply couldn't she has grown into a confident, normal toddler - a nightmare at times, an angel at others.

[Oblomov]

What an awful thread. And I have seen some corkers , in my Mn time, so it takes alot for me to say that. poor OP. she coems on for some basic advice and is ridiculed.
Its a shame thta some of the decent AP'ers, that I have seen on MN, haven't come to help you out more OP.
Hang on in there, though. 4 wks is a very tricky time whether you are Ap'ing, Gf'ing, or anythng else.

[OhdearNigel]

the website Natural Mamas is AP and has a forum, we're all very friendly and you'll be able to get some great advice there from mamas who have been through the same as you're going through now.