to be sick of feeble uni students? and want to know how to fix the education system?

[Anna1976]

I get the joy of dealing with uni students of a variety of backgrounds in the medical sciences. I've had it up to here with the feeble ones who don't have a sense of ownership of their own education... and expect to be spoon-fed on how to do things... and never just get on and find things out. What is so hard about putting in the effort to be able to defend your point of view? We don't expect you to know everything, just know how to learn something and defend it.

I've just finished suggesting to one that as he will be defending his PhD in under 6 months perhaps he could go and read the literature on the techniques i'm teaching him, and thus be able to make choices about experimental design in his own PhD, which is meant to be his own original research.

Based on the discussion on the life skills that all children need thread - how are these kids getting so far into tertiary education with this kind of approach to learning? What needs to be fixed to make people be a bit more proud of their ability to sort themselves out and learn independently??

( Arrggh.)

[Anna1976]

Dragonwoman - without knowing the specifics I can't really say, but I'd look very carefully at whether it would make a difference to your job prospects in the long term, or whether you already have the skills you need to have good job prospects (graft, patience, humility, lateral and deep thinking). You may well already have these (particularly since you have a family already), in which case I'd be hawking the CV to all and sundry and not uprooting the family. But it might make a difference to your job prospects... in which case, go for it. i can't tell.

[Dragonwoman]

I think I could probably get a job without the Phd. The thought of doing a Phd appeals however. I am worried about the prospect of wasting time at my age though if the Phd wont add anything to my employability. I have previous work experience but in a different sector. Aiming for a career change. Grateful for any advice!

[MamaChocoholic]

I think it really depends on the career you're after Dragon. I did a PhD because I wanted to do scientific research, for which it's pretty much compulsory. can you contact a couple of potential employers and ask?

re students as unpaid labour in science labs. I honestly don't see how else it could be done in my area of science. the budgets needed to do the experiments that will actually move the state of knowledge forward just aren't available within standard PhD funding. and if a PI is going to spend their budget on a student then they need some control over the direction of research.

I've seen it done badly, with students not expected to have original thoughts unless they mirrored the thoughts of the supervisors. although their funding included some money for consumables, it was basically consumed into the lab budget

I've seen it done well, with students given a project within the aims of the whole group, and a real chance to own that piece of work and take it forward.

however the "bad" place probably looks better to funders as lower calibre students are coached through to viva while in the other environment they leave sometime after the first year viva, even though it simply fails to give the brightest students the foundation they need to become independent researchers.

[FlyMeToTheMooncup]

Bloody hell Corvax (love the name BTW, assuming it's a Muzzy reference?) I'm not sure if that article is more infuriating or hilarious.

[FlyMeToTheMooncup]

Ooh well I've learned a new word anyhow :o

Muzzy is an old BBC cartoon that was designed to teach languages - you could get it on VHS and now DVD (hideously expensive) in English and and another language. I had the French one.

Corvax was the evil character, come to think of it he had a very big sharp nose so maybe that was representing a beak?

Sorry derailing the thread somewhat...

[FlyMeToTheMooncup]

here Muzzy is the big green thing (he likes eating parking meters) and Corvax is the scary thing in black.

[Spuddybean]

I work in uni's assisting grads get jobs/interns. The ones i see (are the ones who haven't found work themselves so i know the stats are skewed) are dreadful. They can hardly string a sentence together or communicate at all - i wonder how they even got through primary school let alone uni.

Their levels of entitlement are shocking. I have many anecdotes that are just appalling.

They send me really rude emails in block caps telling me what they expect, 'i wont work for less than 45k...I HAVE A DEGREE' etc.

[NotQuiteSoDesperate]

Spuddybean - I have three and 45k would be an impossible dream for me! Don't they know about real jobs/life? Actually don't bother to answer that one, I work with teens :)

[Spuddybean]

i used to teach in secondary school and i think he problem starts at primary, but 11 they already had such entitled behaviour it was outrageous.

[NotQuiteSoDesperate]

Spuddybean - certainly like that with many in my school!

[FlyMeToTheMooncup]

corvax I love that expression :)

Spuddy I demand respectfully request that you tell some of these anecdotes...

[Indaba]

Corvax
saw it too.

What was so sad was comment by his son....saying he was happy at Uni now in his second year but he felt (and I paraphrase) that there was unfinished business with his old school and was still very unsettled.

My read of that was they should have complained and moved on.

[A1980]

They're not only spoon fed, they lack basic skills even the "smart" ones.

In my field, law, I notice they get worse year upon year. The sense of entitlement is shocking. We employ law students for a few weeks for some experience who help us out with admin, etc and we take them to court to help so they learn something too. You give them a task to do e.g. photocopying, one of them actually said to me when I put it on her table "Oh for fuck sake, not more". I'm an experienced SOLICITOR and she is gaining an advantage by even being with us. Many law students would give a limb to be with us for a few weeks. I asked her if she had a actually problem doing the job she's paid to do which was met with silence.

One of my trainees once drafted me a letter including fragments that included "there" instead of "their" and the phrase "Are client" instead of "Our client." This was from a Cambridge graduate in English Literature. I almost wept. NOT in my day which is alarmingly only a decade older than hers!

[Andrewofgg]

A1980, I sift applications from people who want a training contract. Some of them write in text-speak. It is terrifying.

[A1980]

Andrew I haven't been given that task yet, thankfully it's the job of partners which I am not yet.

Just think when you and I get old the children of this lot will be the doctors and lawyers ..... it is terrifying

[Andrewofgg]

Mercifully there are so many applications for training contracts that we can choose the good ones and there are many very good ones!

What the text-speak writers do with their expensively-acquired law degrees I don't know. As for "when we get old" - I have retirement in my sights. But I don't feel old. Probably because I refuse to grow up.

[ziptoes]

dragonwoman be careful about a PhD in an engineering subject. Engineering is one of those jobs where a PhD does not necessarily get you ahead in a career. Get some advice form someone in the career path you want to take, or perhaps even get in touch with your professional body for advice (ie the ICE for civil engineering. I know people in my uni have found it difficult to recruit into engineering PhDs for that reason. I'm not saying don't do it, just go into it with your eyes open. In any case career prospects won't get you through the difficult bits of a PhD, whereas enthusiasm and love for your subject will.

If you're looking for a PhD I have one to fill. My excellent candidate just accepted a better offer, damn it.

[Spuddybean]

A lot of the company managers of the interns i arrange have reported problems with basic communication skills, tardiness, sickness (not called in and had to be called) etc. The list just goes on and a lot just keep asking about pay and not doing their work.

Managers have said they keep saying 'when will i get paid' and don't 'understand' tax - despite it being explained ad infinitum.

My DP who took on 2 interns nearly dismissed one because they complained to him on a daily basis about being taxed and kept asking if he could do something about it!

They turn up to interviews in jeans. Wont even proof read their own cv. I get sent their cv to proof (there are astonishing mistakes and very odd things written) i put track changes on and make amendments and send them back.

They then send rude emails back saying it's my job to amend it so why should they? When i interview they walk into my office, don't make eye contact, have terrible body language and can't express themselves.

The other day one just kept saying 'interview' over and over again.

Student:INterview
Spuddy: sorry, can i help you
Student: Interview
Spuddy: Are you here for an interview?
Student: Interview
Spuddy: I don't know what you need, can you explain
Student: (agitated) INTERVIEW

These are not students with SN's. I wonder ho they function in life. How do they do their shopping, pay their bills etc?

Im only 34 and the disparity between my cohort of graduates a decade ago is alarming.

Uni's now have to add more value because of the fee's so they have employability depts which they pitch to the students to help them gain employment. But the grads feel that this then means we HAVE to find them a job and they have to put no effort in whatsoever.

a lot are 24 years old and i can't help but think about people who have fought and died for their country in this time. Or had children and worked for 8 years.

[A1980]

We have a very good screening process for trainees. We get 700+ applications so we can pick and choose as we see fit. But the one who wrote "are client" made it through.

I think we should start giving them spelling and grammar tests.

[A1980]

Im only 34 and the disparity between my cohort of graduates a decade ago is alarming.

That is so SO true spuddy. It's shocking.

[GrendelsMum]

I had a prospective intern arrive wearing microshorts for her interview.

Still better than the one who arrived saying she didn't know anything about our organisation as she'd been too busy making cakes for a party she was going to.

But, as I said, the two we took on were excellent.

[ziptoes]

And back to the main thread,

I think there are two themes emerging here. One is to do with the general sense of entitlement and scary lack of knowledge in some undergraduates. (some of them are so dumb they can't even use the spelling and grammar checker to sort out their shocking writing) [erm, extra credits to those who can spot the sloppy deliberate mistake in my last post;)].

The second theme is the question of whether that is spilling over into PhDs. My experience of supervising PhD and masters students at 4 universities in 3 countries is that there is very little standard practice. It varies between countries, institutions, departments, and supervisors. just look at how varied the experience of a viva (thesis defence) can be. In Norway the defence is a public talk after which a pass is rubber stamped. All the correction-y bits are supposed to happen before the defence. In the US the defence is a public talk during which anyone can ask questions and then you have a grilling from your thesis committee. In the UK a viva can be anything from a nice chat to an all-day grilling. The huge variation in practice makes it pretty hard to compare between PhDs. But I don't generally think there's been a drop in PhD standards. My earlier post was more about undergraduates with a question for you all about the REF using PhD completions as a gauge of standards.

[ziptoes]

sorry that back ti the main thread comments was referring to my previous post. You lot type way faster than I can think (kids up 3 time last night on separate occasions, doesn't make for the greatest of brains the next day)!