to be sick of feeble uni students? and want to know how to fix the education system?

[Anna1976]

I get the joy of dealing with uni students of a variety of backgrounds in the medical sciences. I've had it up to here with the feeble ones who don't have a sense of ownership of their own education... and expect to be spoon-fed on how to do things... and never just get on and find things out. What is so hard about putting in the effort to be able to defend your point of view? We don't expect you to know everything, just know how to learn something and defend it.

I've just finished suggesting to one that as he will be defending his PhD in under 6 months perhaps he could go and read the literature on the techniques i'm teaching him, and thus be able to make choices about experimental design in his own PhD, which is meant to be his own original research.

Based on the discussion on the life skills that all children need thread - how are these kids getting so far into tertiary education with this kind of approach to learning? What needs to be fixed to make people be a bit more proud of their ability to sort themselves out and learn independently??

( Arrggh.)

[ProfessionallyOffendedGoblin]

I've suggested to DD that she starts charging for the proof-reading and editing service she has been offering her friends.
It is incredible that some lovely and intelligent people appear to be unable to spell or use words accurately when writing an essay, and that they don't seem to think it matters where you get information from or how to reference it correctly.

[Whatmeworry]

What % of students are gormless though? And what does it look like after 6 months? I think a lot of kids take 6 months to get into the whole Uni thing.

Also, re Ducati building - I had (and still have) a whole bunch of interests that had very little to do with my degrees - and TBH for much of teh time they were far more interesting, degrees only really get interesting in the final/honours/postgrad years.

[RoyalWelsh]

I agree completely with what Bertie said. It starts at school and being taught to finish SATs/GCSEs/A Levels. Wales have recognised the effect this has been having on the people this method turns out into society and has, in the last three/four years asked it's primary teachers to focus very much on teaching 'skills.'. It is something I hope very much to see in England, but think it's unlikely seeing as, as I understand it, its nowcompulsory to stay in school till 18 and a desire from the government for a more 'content based' curriculum.

I want my children to be taught how to learn and how to love to learn. That being a well rounded person with a skill set that enables them to enter the workforce and be a success, whatever they choos to do, is better than being able to reel off a string of dates and formula (although obviouslythese are important too) and that is why, unless things change, I will be starting my family in Wales.

I, by the way, came through the secondary system not so long ago, got all A Stars and As, got high A Level results and have just graduated. I really struggled at university because I just wasn't used to havingto think for myself. When I had to do my own research and have my own opinions I panicked. It took me a good year and a half before I found my stride and my grades picked up.

[roundtable]

I sometimes work alongside a very good literacy consultant in education (he works freelance as he is so in demand, one of very few consultants that actually has good, workable advice to improve teaching and learning) and he is utterly convinced there is a whitewash over secondary education. He seems to think that primary schools are the focus of a lot of sometimes negative attention, however primaries are expected to teach children at a much higher level than previous decades. However, he says, they go to secondary school and this then slows right down. I don't know whether this is the case or not but it's interesting.

Also (and I know that anecdote is not the plural of data, is that the right phrase?) I am friends with a mfl teacher who claims past a certain year group children really struggle with the grammar rules. When she questioned what grammar they had learnt at school they seemed to think nothing since primary school. Now this could be just this school but I remember my own (poor) education and I don't remember being taught grammar at school either, I was lucky and picked it up through reading and it makes me think...

Now primaries are expected to teach grammar all the way through which is a good, good thing. Is it the same now for secondary schools too?

(excuse any typos, I'm on my phone!)

[DartsRus]

My eldest DC is just about to start secondary, so I am interested in this thread as a guide to the future. DP and I have already been teaching our dcs the value of looking things up and researching your own stuff, at an appropriate level. (We've also taught them the old-fashioned way of using books to find information, after all a power cut could spoil that other line of "research")

I think the whole area of tertiary eduction needs a review. We seem to have about 40% of 18 yrs old trying to get into uni now, when I'm sure not all of them are suited to taking a degree. And then we hear of significant numbers of drop-outs. Many other countries have the level of students at about 30-35% with fewer drop-outs.

While an educated population is desirable, does that really mean all at degree level? I remember there being different levels of education, such as OND/HND, that actually included more practical hands-on stuff that may be more suited to some people than a degree. I think NVQs have largely replaced these, but I'm not sure.

We seem to have arrived at the public perception that you either have a degree or you are stuck as a shop worker when we used to have a wide variety of qualifications suiting all levels of ability. And I look at many jobs where employers require a degree when the actual work involved doesn't warrant it.

I don't have a degree, but as I will be made redundant at the end of October, I am now looking to gain qualifications to match the incredible experience I've gained from my job over the last 19 years. I am looking at jobs where I could do the work with my eyes closed, but employers are demanding degrees.

[Fennel]

I think it varies a lot between courses and institutions. The OP's phd student sounds as though he shouldn't have been allowed to get past his first year, and if he's got a viva in 6 months he should be way beyond needing "teaching". Some institutions let phd students in who aren't really up to it, others are firmer.

I'm perhaps lucky lately in that I mostly teach hugely motivated and hardworking students, mostly postgrads and very capable of sorting themselves out. But my friend who's teaching in the same subject at another university says that the students talk through lectures and you can't tell them to leave because there is compulsory attendance and the students have to be there. That outrages me, I would just refuse to lecture to adults talking while I was teaching. But I think that is still unusual, there are many very hardworking and sorted students out there, and they become more so if you expect it of them too.

[beanandspud]

It's not quite on topic but I was watching something last night about 'A' level results and how to get a place through Clearing. A suggestion from one parent was "why isn't there a button to press for 'I'll go to anywhere that will have me?'". I couldn't help thinking that if that is the attitude of prospective degree students who just want to go to university regardless of the subject or institution it is no wonder that we end up with a lot of people studying subjects that they don't care about with absolutely no idea about what they might do in 3 years time.

I agree with the poster who said that far too many students go to university these days and many would benefit from getting a sound education, leaving school with some key skills and getting a job where they can still learn and progress.

The attitude that the OP describes is also becoming more prevalent in the workplace - there are huge expectations that the company somehow 'owes' them something and will spoon-feed everything.

[BikeRunSki]

I was the changeover year from O level to GCSE. I have O Levels and my A levels were the "write down everything you know in 3 hours" type. I always had ownership and responsibility for my education; work always in on time, exams always sat and passed, grants and scholarships actively sought out and applied for. I was the last year of full undergrad grants. I felt so honoured to have my education paid for that I did not miss a single tutorial, lecture, practical or deadline unless I was very ill indeed. Maybe being a girl in a very male dominated field pushed me too.

BSc, MSc, PhD and 10 years later I was teaching undergraduate engineering students who had taken GCSEs and modular A Levels. Their attitude seemed to be much more like that described by the OP. Maybe it is to do with this change in 16+ and 18+ exams - with coursework and modules etc, there is always a second chance, this can surely not instill any ethic to try and get something done right the first time?

[Salmotrutta]

Anna - a PhD student such as you describe would have been advised to enter for an MPhil instead at my old institutions.
Students were (and stll are) monitored and advised as to whether they were cutting the mustard so to speak. And that still happens - if they don't have sufficient data to discuss they would also probably be entered for an MPhil instead.
I keep in touch with my old colleagues and these processes still go on.
PIs with good research reputations are highly selective about who they take on and PhDs places are only awarded to extremely good candidates.

[VictorGollancz]

Salmotrutta, even those institutions who are more 'teaching' than 'research' based are very careful about the quality of the PhD candidate. It's a massive black mark against the institution to have a candidate fail or drop out. And agree about the MPhil.

[OTheHugeManatee]

Schools could start by not pandering to the idea that teachers are doing it wrong if learning isn't always 'fun' for the pupils. Some learning (I'm thinking of grammar tables for languages, for example) just aren't particularly fun whichever way you slice them, but are pretty essential if you want a firm grasp of your topic.

I had to learn Anglo-Saxon and Middle English as part of my English Lit degree. I'm glad I did it as without the historical perspective on how the language and literature have evolved over the centuries it would have been a very shallow degree indeed. But one thing it wasn't was 'fun'.

If you give a load of kids the expectation that they can be 'having fun' all the time while learning, then how can you suddenly expect them to do a U-turn when they get to university and start putting in hours and hours of self-directed donkey work on topics and activities that are essential but boring?

[cory]

Not sure wholehearted emphasis on finding-out techniques is the answer either. As a language teacher, I find students are constantly hampered by the fact that they don't believe you can learn things by heart: I only insist on a very few paradigms, maybe 60 endings in total, but half the students in my classes genuinely believe this is beyond the capacity of the human brain.

I could do with a few old-fashioned catechism-and-reciting-the-Wreck-of-the-Hesperus students. (Music students are always good, because they have had to do a lot of tedious practising to learn their instruments, so tend not to give in to self-pity.)

As for fact finding, they seem to have spent all their time doing that, but what many of them understand by research is running the cursor over a Wikipedia article: it goes from the mouse to the essay pretty well by-passing the brain.

During recent forages into the English dept I have been interested to find that a substantial proportion of young people of English literature have never actually liked reading books. Makes you wonder who wrote their application.

But I do spend a lot of time supporting students, and it's not just from the almost certain knowledge that I would lose my job if results or student satisfaction started dropping: I also have a kind heart and hate seeing students upset.

[Whatmeworry]

If you give a load of kids the expectation that they can be 'having fun' all the time while learning, then how can you suddenly expect them to do a U-turn when they get to university and start putting in hours and hours of self-directed donkey work on topics and activities that are essential but boring

Be interesting to see how £9k a year changes this expectation on Uni's. Here's betting they will strt to be a lot more concerned about "fun" too.....

Not sayin' its a good thing mind, just sayin...

[janelikesjam]

I loathed being spoon fed which is why I left 6th form in the 70s. I sympathise with OP though. I went to University later but tbh I don't see the point of university unless you are (a) very academic or with a great passion for your subject or (b) its necessary for a job e.g. medicine, scientist, law. I think there are more creative ways of getting an education.

[Anna1976]

thanks for lots of food for thought - will post more tomorrow.

I strongly agree with the idea of an educated population, educated post-school, but I think that the automatic link that has developed between respect for a profession and having a degree (as well as the reprehensible lack of respect for nursing and teaching as professions even though they require degrees) requires a lot of thought and probably re-shaping.

The thing is I absolutely love it when I come across students who are there because they want to learn stuff - either because it's fascinating [and useless] or because they are interested enough in their job to want to develop. That kind of educated population is great. But the kids shoved through the sausage machine with no interest or motivation (and some shoving gets some of them through PhDs and beyond before they drop out) - god, let them do something else til they find motivation! It's irresponsible and a waste of public money to pretend some of them are capable of independent research...

[doesthisseemright]

OP I agree...damn right!

[Donki]

There is a good body of research that shows that school students learn better when they have to actively engage brain and are not just spoon fed. The difficulty with this in my experience is that the students actively resist this approach because it is harder work for them, and they find it daunting until they are used to it. Catch 22 - once they are used to it, they are quite enthusiastic but getting to that point is very difficult. Especially with students with a lack of confidence and/or learning difficulties...

[doesthisseemright]

I gave my level 6 (3rd year) undergrads some self directed learning and they had a total meltdown.

[doesthisseemright]

And this pastoral care stuff needs to fuck off. Im a lecturer and researcher, not a freakin babysitter
cant wait until september [hm]

[OTheHugeManatee]

whatme Be interesting to see how £9k a year changes this expectation on Uni's. Here's betting they will strt to be a lot more concerned about "fun" too.....

I've been wondering about this too. It's possible that this will happen, but I'm not sure that's inevitable.

Ultimately, if people are seeing degrees as an investment in their future employability, then the degrees that are most 'successful' at teaching people skills they can use in work (regardless of the subject involved) will be the ones that survive.

If graduate employers generally agree that graduates who expect to have fun and be spoonfed are the type they're really keen to employ, then you may be right. But if, as I suspect, employers want trainees with patience, graft, independent thinking and good recall then the degrees that emerge as having cachet will be the ones that demand patience, graft, independent thinking and good recall - and don't give a toss whether students are having fun or not.

[Booboostoo]

I had the misfortune of having to teach philosophy at Leeds Uni (frequently top of students' choice of Uni due to the great night life). I once asked a student who had been particularly unresponsive during seminars what was wrong and whether there was anything I could do to help...only to be told that all he wanted was a third class degree and he didn't need to open his mouth to get that. That level of apathy was pretty much standard in about 1/3 of the students and it did bring everyone else down.

As for PhDs don't even get me started. One of the easiest ways to pretend that there is still some funding for education is to offer funding for PhDs (while letting overall HE funding disappear), which has led to huge numbers of people continuing in HE with either no interest, no skills or no job prospects. I've had PhD students who had never had a one-to-one discussion with a lecturer before and had no idea that they were supposed to come up with their own arguments and defend them (!!!) and a PhD student who after successful graduation and a publication in a top rated journal needed a reference for a job at MacDonalds because there was nothing else available!

Don't start be on equal access! I'll never forget the 3rd year medical student who burst into tears with me because he was the only one still left out of 12 students in his equal access programme. The programme tried to get students from less priviledged backgrounds into medicine, but gave them so little support the vast majority dropped out. This poor lad felt that he carried the hopes of the entire programme and that he had to prove people from other baclgrounds were worth the effort to help.

Thoroughly depressing!

[OTheHugeManatee]

Booboos So from what you say, should we conclude that the NuLab target of 50% of young people in HE was unrealistic, simply because fewer than 50% are motivated and capable enough?

If so, then I think we can also conclude that NuLab's attempt to widen access to HE, while well-meaning, has actually shafted bright people from poorer backgrounds. The 50% target was only made affordable for the government by passing on part of the cost of HE to students through tuition fees. And this both made it less affordable for people whose parents can't support them, and also created degree inflation that makes it harder for those wtih degrees to stand out.

[OTheHugeManatee]

oops, posted too soon. What I meant was that if fewer than 50% of young people are capable and motivated enough for HE, then the unintended consequences of the 50% target - tuition fees and degree inflation - have penalised bright disadvantaged kids for no real benefit.

[maypole1]

Mitmoo don't agree at all with the 9k courses you will only get the cream of the crop nobody who has scraped through is going to pay 9k for a course


If my child was not clever enough to get the grades to secure his course I would not want him to pay 9k to go to a lesser uni to study david beckham studies

[VictorGollancz]

I am truly mystified by these PhD students who are clearly incapable and yet get funding and a doctorate at the end of it! I'm not saying I don't believe those who are giving examples, but it would never happen in my field. Never.

A student who had never had a one-to-one with a lecturer and couldn't produce (and defend) a viable proposal wouldn't get past the interview stage in my institution. This is standard practice at any institution that I have personal knowledge of.

I'm equally mystified by these hordes of incapable undergrads! Apathy is an issue across the board, I agree. But undergrads who are truly incapable and/or lazy are rare, and they are failed, and they drop out. The system works as it should.