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AIBU?

to be sick of feeble uni students? and want to know how to fix the education system?

159 replies

Anna1976 · 19/08/2011 05:29

I get the joy of dealing with uni students of a variety of backgrounds in the medical sciences. I've had it up to here with the feeble ones who don't have a sense of ownership of their own education... and expect to be spoon-fed on how to do things... and never just get on and find things out. What is so hard about putting in the effort to be able to defend your point of view? We don't expect you to know everything, just know how to learn something and defend it.

I've just finished suggesting to one that as he will be defending his PhD in under 6 months perhaps he could go and read the literature on the techniques i'm teaching him, and thus be able to make choices about experimental design in his own PhD, which is meant to be his own original research.

Based on the discussion on the life skills that all children need thread - how are these kids getting so far into tertiary education with this kind of approach to learning? What needs to be fixed to make people be a bit more proud of their ability to sort themselves out and learn independently??

( Arrggh.)

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Dragonwoman · 21/08/2011 22:04

ziptoes I am not an engineer sadly - would like to be but my maths is not good enough!

My subject is a practical design type. I am aware that a PhD will prob not increase my employability unless I want to be an academic but I think I would like do do one for my own satisfaction. I enjoy my MSc & I am aware that in industry my opportunities for research and seeing projects through from start to finish may be limited.

However I don't want to be hampered by the PhD - thinking in view of my age really. Worried that employers will be put off by a new starter nearer to 50 than 40. Aware that a career in academia will be very hard to progress at my age. Also with a growing family need the higher wages in industry. Could manage financially for 3 years, but not much longer.

Don't have to decide for another year yet (pt student) so still information gathering!

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A1980 · 21/08/2011 21:52

I would LOVE to be able to take whopping great chunks of marks off for poor spelling, grammar, and presentation. I bet they'd bother with proof-reading then.

Students bloody well should have whopping great chunks of marks taken off for poor spelling and grammar. If they can't spell or use correct grammar, they have no right obtaining top marks.

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GrendelsMum · 21/08/2011 14:59

I spend some time lurking on a student forum for work, and I am concerned by the mismatch between the students' bafflement about why they don't get jobs and the obvious problems I saw with the interview candidates. I think some of the students are missing out on a whole load of basic skills regarding the world of work, and it puts them at a real disadvantage.

the intriguing thing, and this is an entirely unrepresentative sample of two, is that the two excellent candidates both came from less advantaged backgrounds, had gone to very good schools, and had all the skills you arent necessarily taught at university - exactly how to prepare for an interview, what to wear in an office, how to make a packed lunch, how to take turns tea making and eating an appropriate amount of biscuits from the office tin, etc.

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Anna1976 · 21/08/2011 10:31

VictorGollancz - I feel the way you do about those students who work hard. And I feel pretty unhappy about the way your university and many others like it will get screwed over by the new system (see Collini's article/ summary above).

did the government listen to anyone from HE about this? no.

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Andrewofgg · 21/08/2011 09:02

I used to mark exam papers written by people who wanted to be solicitors.

One paper, which I had marked at 23% and that was generous, ended with the words:

I am sorry to have wasted your time reading this drivel.

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Booboostoo · 21/08/2011 08:57

My favourite is this (rather inspired) start to an essay:

"I know fuck all about this subject so I don't know why I should bother writing anything but here goes"

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VictorGollancz · 21/08/2011 08:38

Bloody hell, some of those stories - I'm sure I could match them! The way they write emails is of particular concern; a lot of them seem to have no idea of formality.

I would LOVE to be able to take whopping great chunks of marks off for poor spelling, grammar, and presentation. I bet they'd bother with proof-reading then.

But we must focus on those excellent students that we all have; why should the lazy ones get all the attention? And what, exactly, are university tutors to do about a sense of entitlement or the belief that microshorts are suitable formal attire? Like I said, I work in the sort of uni that is currently being derided by the government and a fair few academic snobs, and it makes me very very sad. There are some truly excellent minds coming through here who, for whatever reason, didn't do as well at A-Level as they should. They get firsts. Then there are the ones who actually learn - start of at 55% and creep up and up through hard work, finishing with a 2:1. I really love those students.

Our percentage of students with A grades at A level are increasing - and what's the reply? Not that it's a reflection on nearly a decade of hard fecking work by the department as a whole, but 'Oh, A levels are getting easier, degrees are getting easier, etc, etc'. It's an insult to these young people. It's an insult to me - I mark these essays and I do have standards, you know!

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Anna1976 · 21/08/2011 08:27

a summary for those with no time: it's about changes to higher educaiton policy - but we would do well to think about how these changes will affect the standards that we've been discussing. My students may become even more privately educated (and I would regard a lessening of diversity as a bad thing - particularly in medicine but also in science).

Disclaimer: I am not Stefan Collini, though I would like to be!
Original article here
www.lrb.co.uk/v33/n16/stefan-collini/from-robbins-to-mckinsey

Summary below:
He starts off by talking about how certain buzzwords and buzz-phrases are very identifiable as to decade of origin, and how one can date official government publications because "They tend not to bear the marks of an individual sensibility, but rather to deploy the idioms and arguments thought to command the widest acceptance, even when ? perhaps especially when ? the proposals they contain are novel and controversial." He develops this into the argument that since the 1980s, a lot of official discourse has been colonised by "the language of management schools, business consultants and financial journalism", because of the idea being pushed from powerful quarters that it's a great idea "to elevate the status of business and commerce and to make ?contributing to economic growth? the overriding goal of a whole swathe of social, cultural and intellectual activities which had previously been understood and valued in other terms."

As he points out it wouldn't have been possible to do that if everyone else had been heading down a different track. But the way he puts it, looking back is gruesome:
"Very broadly speaking, the extension of democratic and egalitarian social attitudes has been accompanied by the growth of a kind of consumerist relativism. The claim that one activity is inherently of greater value or importance than another comes to be pilloried as ?elitism?. Arguments are downgraded to ?opinions?: all opinions are equally valuable (or valueless), so the only agreed criterion is what people say they think they want, and the only value with any indefeasible standing is ?value for money?. Government documents issued in the last 20 years or so are immediately identifiable by the presence of such buzz phrases as ?it is essential to sustain economic growth and maintain Britain?s global competitiveness,? ?consumers must have a choice of services,? ?competition will drive up quality? and so on."

The argument applied to higher education is an extended comparison of the 1963 Robbins Report (expand access to universities, turn colleges of advanced technology into unis) with the 2010 Browne report and the recent White Paper on HE funding (turn universities into a market economy by removing public funding for teaching and tripling the allowable fees to recover costs).

Responsibility for HE and its funding has been shuffled round through a variety of departments in recent decades, essentially moving from a position of autonomy for the universities, to a position where "Universities and research have come more and more under the aegis of bodies whose primary concerns are business, trade and employment. The terms in which the activities of universities are now discussed have been honed in shaping other kinds of ?corporate and business unit strategy?." He points out how far this position (universities = there for economic growth) is from the 1963 Robbins report, which said that universities were places of research and should be connected more with museums and goverment research institutions, than with schools; also that both sides of politics have done their share of bringing about this change.

Lord Browne's report is exposed as being produced by businessmen apparently in the government's pocket, producing a report (and eventually a white paper) that is astonishingly close to the aims of the Comprehensive Spending Review, for an independent report produced before other aspects of policy came to light. The report was widely criticised, but the government accepted its main recommendations (and subsequently abandoned several of them, "partly because of political pressure, especially from the Liberal Democrats, partly because the financial implications were frightening, especially to the Conservatives, and partly because they came to seem, when looked at more closely, unworkable.") He also points out that
removing public funding from teaching and tripling undergraduate fees "hadn?t been in the election manifesto of any party ? indeed, the Liberal Democrats had made a commitment to abolish fees ? and hadn?t been subject to proper democratic scrutiny". Also, the normal way of doing things (white paper -> criticism, consultation -> draft legislation -> parliamentary debate & vote -> law) was completely reversed with the Browne report, where the Browne report came out in late October 2010, the legislative decisions were taken in early November, andthe White Paper came out in late June this year, i.e. "more than six months after the legislation it was supposed to prepare the way for, and long after universities had been forced by that legislation to draw up financial plans without knowing how the new scheme would operate."

The policy is then shown to be based on the premise that the Office for Fair Access had the legal power to force universities to not charge the maximum allowable fees - but unfortunately OFFA doesn't have that power, so most universities will charge 9000 pounds, and actually the cost of providing student loans for 9000 pounds a year is going to cost the government more than the old scheme of block grants for teaching, which cost about 7500 a year for the "average" student. So it fails in its aim of the government spending less. There is also the bizarre and unpleasant ?core and margin? model of allocating places and funding for students, which has the effect of not much change for "top" universities with high admission criteria, but which forces down the fees chargeable by the low-end universities, and leaves them under-resourced, to a point where they will not be able to recover costs and will go bankrupt; meanwhile it will be easier for new private institutions to get university accreditation - i.e. having government funding go to for-profit companies to make shareholders happy. Because children at private schools do have a dramatically better chance of getting high A-level scores, and it's the admissions criteria on A-level scores that will determine whether you can charge 9000 or less, essentially this is entrenching social inequality and destroying social mobility, in the name of market freedom.

The government will also provide a direct teaching grant to some, but not all lab-based courses - according to government priorities - so medicine gets money but engineering, physics and chemistry don't. Similarly they will fund some courses that not enough people want to do but that need people in them. This is strangely at odds with the idea that it should be consumer choice driving provision (which is the point of the idea of making univresities a market economy).

So if the consumer choice model is flawed, why adopt it? It seems to be based on the idea that unless you pay for something it's worthless, and it's only you paying for "the student experience" that confers any worth on university study. The student experience seems to be conceived rather like a hotel's customer satisfaction survey: "Were the fluffy towels fluffy enough?" - "The paradox of real learning is that you don?t get what you ?want? ? and you certainly can?t buy it. The really vital aspects of the experience of studying something (a condition very different from ?the student experience?) are bafflement and effort. Hacking your way through the jungle of unintelligibility to a few small clearings of partial intelligibility is a demanding and not always enjoyable process. It isn?t much like wallowing in fluffy towels. And it helps if you trust your guides rather than assuming they will skimp on the job unless they?re kept up to the mark by constant monitoring of their performance indicators." It also depends on university students behaving like consumers - but most people only do one undergraduate degree, they don't change their behaviour according to satisfaction (and certainly won't if they're being charged 9000 pounds a year for it); also, universities choose students to about the same degree as students choose universities.

Collini goes through some calculations to show that there is no way the government will save money (or even recoup its costs) by adopting the scheme, and that it won't fix basic problems of student-staff ratios or low contact hours either. He points out that one option open to the government is to sell on the student debt to some private company - who will of course have to increase it to behave as a proper company should and make profits. Universities will also be foced to turn private as a way of surviving. Analysing why it's being done, if it seems like economic suicide, ineffective on fixing problems, bad on social equality, Collini says:
"The inescapable conclusion is that this huge gamble with one of the world?s most successful systems of higher education is being taken in order to bring universities to heel. From the mid-1980s, when the minister responsible for higher education, Robert Jackson, complained that universities were frustrating government efforts to ?reform? them by acting as a ?cartel of producer interests?, successive administrations have sought for ways to make universities conform to their will. But these efforts have run up against the tension at the heart of all higher education policy. Whatever other functions societies have from time to time required universities to fulfil, they are primarily institutions devoted to extending and deepening human understanding, and if they are to do this successfully, students and teachers must be allowed to pursue whatever lines of inquiry seem likely to be most fertile without being entirely constrained by immediate practical outcomes. All kinds of benefit may flow to the host society from such inquiry, but will only do so via a route that is indirect and at one remove. This makes good universities maddeningly resistant to the government wish that they contribute more directly to current policy objectives, and the resistance is all the more maddening since universities are the recipients of large amounts of public money. UK governments over the past 30 years have made a series of attempts to square this circle by means of the spurs and whips of targets and assessments."

He goes on to talk about the clear-mindedness of the Robbins report, saying "pointing to the damage likely to be done to universities by the application of business-school models of ?competing producers? and ?demanding consumers? is not to indulge a nostalgic desire to return to the far smaller and more selective higher education system of 30 or 40 years ago. The expansion of the proportion of the age-cohort entering higher education from 6 per cent to 44 per cent is a great democratic gain that this society should not wish to retreat from. To the contrary, we should be seeking to ensure that those now entering universities in still increasing numbers are not cheated of their entitlement to an education, not palmed off, in the name of ?meeting the needs of employers?, with a narrow training that is thought by right-wing policy-formers to be ?good enough for the likes of them?, while the children of the privileged classes continue to attend properly resourced universities that can continue to boast of their standing in global league tables."
and concludes:
"There is nothing fanciful or irresponsible in believing that this great public good of expanded education can and should be largely publicly funded. This White Paper and the legislation already enacted are not about finding ?fairer? ways to pay for higher education or, in any meaningful sense, about putting ?students at the heart of the system?.[...]"

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Anna1976 · 21/08/2011 02:13

this is relevant to the debate, i think

www.lrb.co.uk/v33/n16/stefan-collini/from-robbins-to-mckinsey

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ziptoes · 20/08/2011 22:15

sorry that back ti the main thread comments was referring to my previous post. You lot type way faster than I can think (kids up 3 time last night on separate occasions, doesn't make for the greatest of brains the next day)!

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ziptoes · 20/08/2011 22:13

And back to the main thread,

I think there are two themes emerging here. One is to do with the general sense of entitlement and scary lack of knowledge in some undergraduates. (some of them are so dumb they can't even use the spelling and grammar checker to sort out their shocking writing) [erm, extra credits to those who can spot the sloppy deliberate mistake in my last post;)].

The second theme is the question of whether that is spilling over into PhDs. My experience of supervising PhD and masters students at 4 universities in 3 countries is that there is very little standard practice. It varies between countries, institutions, departments, and supervisors. just look at how varied the experience of a viva (thesis defence) can be. In Norway the defence is a public talk after which a pass is rubber stamped. All the correction-y bits are supposed to happen before the defence. In the US the defence is a public talk during which anyone can ask questions and then you have a grilling from your thesis committee. In the UK a viva can be anything from a nice chat to an all-day grilling. The huge variation in practice makes it pretty hard to compare between PhDs. But I don't generally think there's been a drop in PhD standards. My earlier post was more about undergraduates with a question for you all about the REF using PhD completions as a gauge of standards.

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GrendelsMum · 20/08/2011 22:12

I had a prospective intern arrive wearing microshorts for her interview.

Still better than the one who arrived saying she didn't know anything about our organisation as she'd been too busy making cakes for a party she was going to.

But, as I said, the two we took on were excellent.

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A1980 · 20/08/2011 22:11

Im only 34 and the disparity between my cohort of graduates a decade ago is alarming.

That is so SO true spuddy. It's shocking.

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A1980 · 20/08/2011 22:10

We have a very good screening process for trainees. We get 700+ applications so we can pick and choose as we see fit. But the one who wrote "are client" made it through.

I think we should start giving them spelling and grammar tests.

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Spuddybean · 20/08/2011 22:08

A lot of the company managers of the interns i arrange have reported problems with basic communication skills, tardiness, sickness (not called in and had to be called) etc. The list just goes on and a lot just keep asking about pay and not doing their work.

Managers have said they keep saying 'when will i get paid' and don't 'understand' tax - despite it being explained ad infinitum.

My DP who took on 2 interns nearly dismissed one because they complained to him on a daily basis about being taxed and kept asking if he could do something about it!

They turn up to interviews in jeans. Wont even proof read their own cv. I get sent their cv to proof (there are astonishing mistakes and very odd things written) i put track changes on and make amendments and send them back.

They then send rude emails back saying it's my job to amend it so why should they? When i interview they walk into my office, don't make eye contact, have terrible body language and can't express themselves.

The other day one just kept saying 'interview' over and over again.

Student:INterview
Spuddy: sorry, can i help you
Student: Interview
Spuddy: Are you here for an interview?
Student: Interview
Spuddy: I don't know what you need, can you explain
Student: (agitated) INTERVIEW

These are not students with SN's. I wonder ho they function in life. How do they do their shopping, pay their bills etc?

Im only 34 and the disparity between my cohort of graduates a decade ago is alarming.

Uni's now have to add more value because of the fee's so they have employability depts which they pitch to the students to help them gain employment. But the grads feel that this then means we HAVE to find them a job and they have to put no effort in whatsoever.

a lot are 24 years old and i can't help but think about people who have fought and died for their country in this time. Or had children and worked for 8 years.

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ziptoes · 20/08/2011 22:01

dragonwoman be careful about a PhD in an engineering subject. Engineering is one of those jobs where a PhD does not necessarily get you ahead in a career. Get some advice form someone in the career path you want to take, or perhaps even get in touch with your professional body for advice (ie the ICE for civil engineering. I know people in my uni have found it difficult to recruit into engineering PhDs for that reason. I'm not saying don't do it, just go into it with your eyes open. In any case career prospects won't get you through the difficult bits of a PhD, whereas enthusiasm and love for your subject will.

If you're looking for a PhD I have one to fill. My excellent candidate just accepted a better offer, damn it.

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Andrewofgg · 20/08/2011 22:01

Mercifully there are so many applications for training contracts that we can choose the good ones and there are many very good ones!

What the text-speak writers do with their expensively-acquired law degrees I don't know. As for "when we get old" - I have retirement in my sights. But I don't feel old. Probably because I refuse to grow up.

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A1980 · 20/08/2011 21:58

Andrew I haven't been given that task yet, thankfully it's the job of partners which I am not yet.

Just think when you and I get old the children of this lot will be the doctors and lawyers ..... it is terrifying

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Andrewofgg · 20/08/2011 21:54

A1980, I sift applications from people who want a training contract. Some of them write in text-speak. It is terrifying.

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A1980 · 20/08/2011 21:43

They're not only spoon fed, they lack basic skills even the "smart" ones.

In my field, law, I notice they get worse year upon year. The sense of entitlement is shocking. We employ law students for a few weeks for some experience who help us out with admin, etc and we take them to court to help so they learn something too. You give them a task to do e.g. photocopying, one of them actually said to me when I put it on her table "Oh for fuck sake, not more". I'm an experienced SOLICITOR and she is gaining an advantage by even being with us. Many law students would give a limb to be with us for a few weeks. I asked her if she had a actually problem doing the job she's paid to do which was met with silence.

One of my trainees once drafted me a letter including fragments that included "there" instead of "their" and the phrase "Are client" instead of "Our client." This was from a Cambridge graduate in English Literature. I almost wept. NOT in my day which is alarmingly only a decade older than hers!

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Indaba · 20/08/2011 20:53

Corvax
saw it too.

What was so sad was comment by his son....saying he was happy at Uni now in his second year but he felt (and I paraphrase) that there was unfinished business with his old school and was still very unsettled.

My read of that was they should have complained and moved on.

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FlyMeToTheMooncup · 20/08/2011 20:15

corvax I love that expression :)

Spuddy I demand respectfully request that you tell some of these anecdotes...

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NotQuiteSoDesperate · 20/08/2011 20:05

Spuddybean - certainly like that with many in my school!

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Spuddybean · 20/08/2011 19:56

i used to teach in secondary school and i think he problem starts at primary, but 11 they already had such entitled behaviour it was outrageous.

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NotQuiteSoDesperate · 20/08/2011 19:31

Spuddybean - I have three and 45k would be an impossible dream for me! Don't they know about real jobs/life? Actually don't bother to answer that one, I work with teens :)

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