Opinions please: worried about the state of my parents' house, is there a problem?

[AnalAboutCleaning]

Namechanged for this.

I'm a bit worried about my parents' house. It's always been messy, and I know my DH thinks I am a bit anal about cleaning and tidying our place, so I just don't really know what's 'normal'. I know some things are proper issues, but others maybe I'm just being precious about? Basically I want to get a sense of how much each of these things would bother you and whether you think I need to say something/do something. It's very hard to talk to my mum about these issues so often I just end up cleaning up when I am there, but I don't live near home. My dad doesn't seem to get it either - he does very little housework. Part of the problem is, I have a baby niece and she will be crawling soon. My parents would be devastated if she got ill, and are expecting to do lots of looking after grandchildren - but I don't know if this will happen if the house stays as it is. Please let me know what you think to the following examples:

1. The kitchen floor is dirty and stick - your feet would go black after a few minutes. They have a new wood floor so they ask me to take my heels off (they wear flat shoes, and don't remove them, so don't seem aware of the issue).

2. Toilets are white, and stained brown inside. They buy eco bleach - does it not work? Or do they not use it enough?

3. The fridge always smells. Spills are not wiped up and things go rotten inside. I don't know if this is just unpleasant or a health issue?

4. Mice. They insist the mice are gone, but one room constantly has droppings in it. I don't know what to do: they say no mice get caught in traps but clearly they are there! Is this a health issue if other rooms don't have obvious signs of mice?

5. Dishes are left uncovered overnight - eg., poured-off cooking fat, leftover salad dressing. Sometimes if flies fall in they are thrown out but I worry my mum doesn't always notice or look clearly to see!

6. The cloth for washing dishes is always scrunched up, wet, after use. Needless to say it soon starts to smell. Do you always rinse yours out and let it dry, or is that me being anal? How often do you wash them? Mum claims they are washed once a week - I don't think this is enough and also doubt it really is that often. Teatowels - again, they're often stiff and smelly, how often do you wash?

7. The kitchen (newly re-done, they're very proud of it so it's hard to criticize) has surfaces that run all around, so the draining board and worktop are all the same surface. Chopping boards are used for eg. raw meat, but not always very precisely, and I'd be amazed if there's not cross-contamination. How likely would you be to get ill from this?

Thanks if you made it this far!

IMO, mice droppings = bad, but everything else I wouldn't worry about.

I grew up in a completely spotless house. My mum was and is utterly obsessed with cleaning, and forever complaining about how there is always dust everywhere (there really isn't, barely a spec). My immune system is SHITE!! And I sit here typing this with a sore throat, running nose - probably my 6th, 7th or 8th cold (I lose count) since this winter alone.

A lot of the stuff I wouldn't be hugely bothered about (e.g. 2, 5, 3 - it depends how bad, and 7 since you don't seem sure that it's really an issue). But I think it's different if you're going to have a child in the house, especially once they start crawling everywhere. You could definitely legitimately voice your concerns about the kitchen floor and the dirty cloths that a child could easily grab and start chewing on.

RE: the mice - they are a nightmare to get rid of in my experience. I lived with mice for one horrendous year in my georgian-era London flat and we tried so many different things but they kept coming back. The landlord even got rentokill out, but that didn't work. Mice can squeeze through a hole the size of a pencil, plus they breed incredibly quickly plus they only need 1 crumb (human size) of food per day to survive. We kept our flat incredibly clean while we had mice, thinking this would be enough to stop them, but it really wasn't.

The only thing that worked for us in the end was to go round the walls/floors of the flat on our hands and knees and stuff every little hole or crevice with wire wool. Mice cannot chew through this stuff. Buy some massive industrial sized balls of it, and stuff it into every possible point of entry you find! It did the job for us, but I guess if your parents have a big house this could be a lengthy task.

revolution - eek, that's scary about the teatowels/cloths. I thought that might be one people thought was anal.

However - fabby, I'm confused. You say you leave your dishcloth like my parents do - then you say you bleach it. Which is it? They're pretty different, surely!

Uncovered food - no, no chance they eat it next day. She throws out fat when it's rancid or if she sees a fly in it.

Mopping their floor once a week is a little tricky from 100 miles away!

I agree the chopping boards thing sounds as if it doesn't bother most people so I am being anal there!

river - yes, I've heard (and found from parents) that mice are a real problem. The house is pretty big - five bedrooms, three bathrooms, etc. I think they just can't keep on top of it all. I'll try with the wire wool in my old room next time I'm home.

The chopping board thing would bother me. Would you lick a raw chicken fabby? Because using the same chopping board for raw meat and then cooked meat in that order is no different.

The only things that would bother me are the sticky kitchen floor & the mice, and those really only concerned wrt niece accessing those areas.

I have friends who lived very healthily (& happily) in much much more filthy homes.

www.axappphealthcare.co.uk/personal/health-nutrition-fitness-information/healthy-living-article/features/bug-busters

This is quite a good.summary. Your parents' immune systems are much more resilient than your db's new baby's will be, so I think your concerns are warranted.

I only use a chopping board to cut my chicken once it is cooked. I never use it for anything else as we don't have anything chopped in our cooked food.

If those are your only concerns though I'd say it isn't that bad, barring the kitchen floor.

Why not offer to pay for a cleaner once a week?

All of the things you raise I think are minging and some of them health issues (scrunched cleaning cloths, leaving food out, cross-contamination). And I'm pretty slatternly- my house is untidy most of the time.

I would be worried about it myself.

Can you buy them a pack of those disposable cleaning wipes? Okay, they're not very eco friendly but at least you know that you can wipe surfaces down with those every time you go over.

When I go to my parents (and they are pretty clean on the whole but getting elderly) I just get a new tea towel and cleaning cloth out of the drawer. If they find that offensive, I don't care. I really hate smelly tea towels :o

The mice really is the biggest worry and I think your brother should talk to them about getting that sorted. Have you noticed any chewed packets of food in the cupboards (sorry, I know that's gross!)?

With the chopping boards, do you mean that they use them for eg raw meat and then leave them and use them later for other stuff? Or use them for raw meat and then to eg chop salad?

Or that they don't have specific different boards for cooked and uncooked meat, veg etc?

First is a prob, second not.

They sound like soap dodgers to me. Have they always been like that or has it got worse? DH and I are 50 - so not that much younger than your parents and we don't live like that - and I'm not manically house proud either.

fabby - sorry, the answer is on the other page, but it's because they'd find it offensive. They could easily afford it, but my mum would be mortified. Same with the cleaning wipes you mention christine (though I might take a pack and put it in my car so I have some for next time). They would just think it was very un-ecofriendly (rightly).

Not seen chewed food since they had the kitchen redone - I've not seen evidence of mice in the kitchen since that (it's only been a few months, but we're hoping the work done got rid of the mice too). Mice are only in evidence (poo, chewed stuff) in my old bedroom, so I hover it when I visit (and they come back). But I don't know if they would be going elsewhere too?

orange - I think I'm being precious about the chopping board. The sort of thing I mean is, mum will cut up a chicken on a board, but the chicken will overlap off the board onto the worksurface. Then she'll use the worksurface to prep salad. She doesn't wipe them down often, and when she does it'll be with one of teh dishclothes which, as we've established, aren't very clean.

married - the house has always been messy. The mice are fairly recent (last 5 years I think?). I'm trying to remember and I think when I lived at home, I cleaned a lot so it wasn't so bad.

Oops, sorry, fabby I didn't answer your first point about only using a board for cooked food: mum wouldn't do that, she cooks a lot from scratch.

It would all bother me.

My MIL's house was never clean and I hated goimg there.

I think older people - ie our parents' generation - are more liekly to have this sort of thing as standard as we are the more aware/hygienic generation.

My mum has always been great at catering/dinner parties etc etc but doesn't bother to cover things and will use things after their sell by date - and they've never been ill. It's just an age thing I think. They don't want to waste things.

Having said that, the mice is a different issue. Agree with other postsers. They need to get traps down and sort em out!

Dishcloths/towels - I wash after every use too.

Chopping boards - I don't always use fresh each time, and none of us have ever got ill.

Loos- sounds like limescale. Are they in a hard water area? Ours are our like this and it doesn't matter how long you spend scrubbing them, they end up like this. Gah.

I think the dishcloth thing is a bit anal. The rest are all quite bad I would say.

FabbyChic You don't chop food? What about cutting up brocolli for example? Carrots? Don't get it.

My parents house is like this. Well my mum died but it was never that clean then and is worse now. I am not a clean freak at all by the way. This is my dads house:

1. My dad has had a new kitchen put in and I don't think the cupboards have been wiped down since which wouldn't be a problem if they weren't splattered in . . . stuff!? Don't know what it is.

2. He doesn't clean out the cat food bowls very often and just puts more food on top. Cue rancid food at the bottom, horrible smell and maggots.

3. The bathroom (particularly the floor) looks like it hasn't been cleaned in months and it covered in dust, pubes etc

4. The stairs have dust on about an inch deep.

5. He doesn't use cutting boards at all and I doubt very much he ever bleaches or cleans the work tops. Luckily the only thing he ever makes on there is toast.

6. The doors are not white any more because of the grime.

7. When my mum was alive she never used to check salad for bugs or wash it. Just cut the lettuce up and put it straight on the plate. One time I had about 200 flies in my lunch. My mum didn't even notice and I fet so bad for picking them out as I didn't want to hurt her feelings. I remember being pregnant and not wanting her to make me lunch .

It's a dificult position your brother's put you in really. I sympathise. My Mum and Dad (separately) are similar to your parents in their standards, and while I and my brother have superb immune systems now, I still cringe at my mum's dishcloth (grey, scrunched, never washed & used to wipe all the grandkids' snotty noses). I'd tell your brother about what you've seen and let him make up his own mind. You can't be responsible for his decisions, surely? So long as you pass on the information you have. You can't run your parents' house and you'll drive yourself mad worrying about it all.

the only one that bothers me is the mice. if they do have mice they need to clean away dirty dishes and clean the floor more often. also try and get rid of mice. the eco loo isn't a problem at all, it's probably just lime scale.

1. The kitchen floor is dirty and sticky
   -- I would worry about this with a baby possibly crawling over it.

2. Toilets are white, and stained brown inside
   -- not an issue, but are they willing to babyproof the toilet/keep the bathroom door closed so the crawling baby can't go in?

3. The fridge always smells. Spills are not wiped up and things go rotten inside. I don't know if this is just unpleasant or a health issue?
   -- This is both unpleasant and a health issue. Many older people suffer from minor stomach upsets and diarrhoea because of inadequately washed plates, forks, etc., as well as eating food that they should discard, just because they were brought up to the mantra 'waste not want not'.

4. Mice -- this is a huge issue
   and they need to clean up the entire house, and keep it clean, in order to solve it. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the size or age of the house. They are there because they have got in and they are multiplying/not leaving because they have access to food and water. There is far more involved than just catching the odd mouse here and there. Asthma symptoms and allergies can be worsened by exposure to mouse droppings. The smell of their urine and faeces will attract other rodents to the house. They will also chew wiring so pose a fire danger. Dried mouse faeces and urine should not be vacuumed. You will need a thorough professional cleaning from an exterminator. Please tell your parents you are hiring an exterminator asap., and do not take no for an answer. They are probably inundated with mice.

5. Dishes are left uncovered overnight
   -- this is a problem if they then eat the leftovers, and often older people do this because they don't want to 'waste' food or scraps.

6. The cloth for washing dishes is always scrunched up, wet, after use. Needless to say it soon starts to smell.
   -- This is a problem imo, because there is often food residue in cloths, and bacteria are constantly being recirculated onto plates, countertops, etc. The dishcloth issue is the same.

7. The kitchen (newly re-done, they're very proud of it so it's hard to criticize) has surfaces that run all around, so the draining board and worktop are all the same surface. Chopping boards are used for eg. raw meat, but not always very precisely, and I'd be amazed if there's not cross-contamination. How likely would you be to get ill from this?
   -- Quite likely if they don't wash the chopping board and proceed directly to use it for chopping veggies or potatoes or whatever. Same goes for using the same knife without washing it.

I think your parents may be depressed or suffering a bit from early signs of hoarding (unwilling to part with leftover food, make decisions about cleaning and tidying). Are they absolutely dead set against having a cleaner in? Why? Are they defensive about the state of the house? Do they have friends who visit?

I would not allow them to babysit at all, tbh. Not just because of the state of the house (which sounds dreadful to me) but because of your mother's bad knee and potential mobility problems. If she can't kneel down then she can't deal with a crawling baby. But even without a bad knee, the state of the house would mean no baby of mine would ever touch the floor or eat a crumb of food there.

I think most of those things you've mentioned are a bit worrying, and I say that as someone who has pretty low standards re housework. For instance I am rather lax on things like changing sheets, mopping floors and dusting, but I am fussy about clean dishcloths and chopping boards. I would never leave food out overnight, uncovered, and then eat it.

Thanks all - very helpful.

WhoseGot - that sounds depressing, sorry to hear about it.

madmomma - yes, I will eventually just pass it on over to my brother to deal with. You're right it's his problem - but I do see where he's coming from, it's his precious first born and he's worried, and now I'm worrying about their health too. Difficult.

math - thanks for taking the trouble to give such a detailed reply, you're very kind! To reply: my mum is I think depressed, but her mental health is a whole other big area. It's certainly not new, and we've never managed to get her to see a doctor. They don't really have friends round (once in a blue moon), but they have spent a lot of time and money extending the house and updating the inside so that family can visit - I think they are disappointed this hasn't already happened more, which is partly why I want to work out how best to tackle these issues, which may be part of the problem. To be honest, DH and I would want to visit more if we weren't expected to share a mouse-riddled single bed - so I can only imagine what other less close family members feel like.

Cleaner - mum would never. Until a couple of weeks ago she worked about 30-35 hours a week but sees very much as part time and doesn't understand why the housekeeping is hard work (she cooks everything from scratch, supermarkets are half an hour and more away - to name a couple of reasons!). She'd feel she had utterly failed if she had a cleaner.

As to babysitting - she couldn't kneel when she had us, either. She managed. It is worse now, but I doubt she would find it too hard, especially with my dad around. She is very, very keen to get involved.

I feel awful because reading these posts (I am not criticizing at all, just noticing this), people are responding as if my parents are old. I guess they are - but I wasn't quite ready for it.

Mt mother, who is now in her 80s, lived like this for years after my Dad died. She is never ill however , and no-one has ever suffered food poisoning from eating out of her kitchen, even DS and my 2 nieces when they were tiny babies/crawling toddlers. We live with her now and I just chuck her all cloths into a boil wash after a couple of days when they start getting manky. I also have a dishwasher so the chopping boards etc get put in every day and sterilised. We have had a new kitechen installed and we have a cleaner every week.

I've come to the reluctant conclusion that it probably doesn't matter very much. Mum's kitchen was vile when we moved in 2 years ago, and God knows I have pretty low housekeeping standards but we have gradually sorted it out.

The irony is, my mother used to complain bitterly about HER MIL's (my gran's) standards of housekeeping, saying her kitchen was so filthy mum refused to take me there to visit when I was a baby .