To feel a bit [hmm] about 'Christianity Day' at school

[nameforaday]

Regular MNer, namechanging because this identifies my son's school.

He is in year 7. Now their end of year exams are over there are a lot of special projects, away days etc...One of the compulsory events is 'Christianity Day' which as far as I can work out is a whole day run by these people...groovy young evangelical Christians who are basically doing missionary outreach work in schools - their aim is to bring more young people to Jesus.

I don't think it is appropriate; it is one thing to teach children about different religions, but another to give over teaching time and premises for an evangelical group to peddle their wares for a whole day. They didn't even send home a letter saying what they day was going to be, and giving people a chance to withdraw.

Any advice on what to do? If if it was primary school I'd go and have a chat with the Head, but secondary school is so much more intimidating! I don't think it will harm my son, I just think its a bit off.

I agree with the fact that schools should not be inviting evangelical groups into school, though they do have a duty to teach children about all the major faiths.

However on the other hand, don't worry too much about your kids being brainwashed - they are surprisingly discerning even at that age. I remember thinking long and hard when I was about 12 about how exactly Jesus suffering on the cross could "save me from sin" and decided I couldn't understand it and it was impossible. I still don't get it.

We tend to hear that it doesn't matter as it will have no effect, but if you think about it those who do push religion onto children must think it's worth their while to go to so much trouble. In their experience there is something to be gained.

So can someone who thinks it is important that children be taught religion (as opposed to being taught about religions like any other subject) tell us why it is essential and what you expect/hope to achieve.

I took mine to our church when they were younger. It was good for me as well because my DH often worked awful hours and it was somewhere to go. There was a lovely creche and sometimes a lunch afterwards. TBH it was social and spiritual for me. My DH comes when he can.

My son no longer goes as he doesn't like church. I would like him to go but don't force him. He swears and looks at unsuitable things on the internet and tends not to go out much. I think he misses out because my dds have a great social life with the youth group and do things in the community as well. They belong to a dance group which sometimes performs in the church and my dd plays in the band. We have a whole range of ages there.

I have never forced mine to do anything, it is their choice. Christianity is a very positive experience IMO. I have had times when I haven't gone to church and have felt bitter and critical of it but overall I think the pros outweigh the cons.

as I said before would it be so bad if they did make an impression and your child did want to go to church. What harm is it doing?

"Evangelical Christianity is practically cult like, fucking awful and takes 10% of people's income. NO place for that sort of shit in schools."

crapola do you realise just how offensive your post is or do you even care ? Why do people seem to think its okay to insult and humiliate christians in this way ?

I am An evangelical christian for your information, i am not "weird" or at least no more than anyone else here. I do not belong to a "cult" i am not kept in my church by force, please look at the definition of a cult.
if you dont undesrtand a particular doctrine ask! Dont jump to conclusions.

You dont need to swear at us by calling us "fucking awful"! It doesnt say much about you as a person.

The church does not "take" 10% of peoples income, it is called "tithes" and is a commandment in the bible, however people pay it at will, nobody is forced! I pay tithes and i pay simply because i love the Lord and i want to see christian work grow, that includes payment of church salaries, outreach work in the community, charity work at home and abroad etc if i miss a payment no one comes demanding to know why i havent paid, i am a free person.

Someone mentioned they should not be on tv, why not ? This is a free country, churches have every right to air their programmes like anyother organisation, you dont have to tune in, i dont agree to the "quality" of all
Preaching on tv, but they are within their rights to air. There are far worst programmes to be worried about on tele, "what did jordan do next" etc.

I can understand feeling uncertain in a spritual gathering where you are a guest and dont really understand what people around you are doing but you surely you must had an idea before you went there that it was going to be a new experience, if you want to a yoga. Meditation class and youve never been before wouldnt you find it a bit strange ?

Dont Just because a group of peoples beliefs and practices are different to your own, take it as a license to insult and belittle them, believe me you would not like it done to you.

Actually Evangelical Christianity is practically an oxymoron. Laying of hands and claiming to heal people is scandalous, apparently communicating with God and passing on messages is disgraceful. The huge and very busy church I visited was frightening.....the charlatan preacher claimed to know how a child would turn out and the plan God had for him, funnily enough it was an early talker who he claimed God wanted him to spread the word of God, I wonder if that's because he knew the child could talk already.

I also find the hysterics and intensity of raised hands and 'Amens' whilst listening to Jesus Rock amusing, in a pointing and laughing at the strange folk sort of way.

And What Jordan did next is not a false promise of what happens when one gets fake breasts, unlike Evangelical Christianity programs which promise miracles if you phone and donate.

Belittle away, although it's a bit hard to be belittling of an anti theist, nothing funny or critical to say is there?

And one last thing, EC going into recruit at school will not affect most of the children with brains ability to think critically, like the OP's son, but may 'work' on the lonely and vulnerable children.

why is it scandalous to try to help and heal people If someone was dying wouldn't it be worth a try. Please clarify the passing of messages. You make it sound like a spritualist church.

"awould it be so bad if they did make an impression and your child did want to go to church. What harm is it doing?"

Okay if we take them to see the BNP too then? would it be so bad if it made an impression and your child wanted to join?

nokissy, evangelical christian groups I know of (charismatic ones) preach that homosexuality can be cured by counseling. They also target people with money problem and 'advise' them...and when they are sorted they are sooooo greatful that they donate money. They also preach gubbins about women being subservient to their husbands.

The pastors of theses churches live in wonderful houses, drive top of the range cars, have great holidays and loads of cash to splash...

All that tithing adds up I guess...

Hellatwork - he's 12

Onagar - I wouldn't go so far as to compare this group to the BNP, but I would compare them to a political party. It would be ok and quite good for a school to have a politics day with speakers from different parties, but not to have a 'Conservativism' day iyswim?

alemci - would you shrug your shoulders and say 'what harm could it do' if an evangelical Muslim group came to school and your child decided to start going to after school madrassa, just wondering.

nokissy I have my beliefs insulted and belittled all the time. I have had many experiences where people (work colleagues mostly) have tried to convert me because I have said I am atheist and won't take no for answer. To them my beliefs mean nothing, just because I don't believe in a deity does not mean I believe in nothing, but they are not willing to pause for breath in telling me how wrong I am in order to hear what those beliefs are. They think that their right to preach at me and tell me I will burn in hell and that my children will too overrides my right not to choose a religious life, that their freedom of speech can suffocate mine. I have even had a work colleague behave atrociously (blaming me for something at work that I was able to prove was her fault only by the stupid way in which she went to so much effort to cover it up) take me to lunch to 'apologise' and then try and convert me and then I was decried as 'unforgiving' when I got up and left the restaurant (left my half of the bill though - no such thing as a free lunch)

So while none of those people swore at me or about me, they treated me as if my views were second-class to theirs and not equally valid. I am tired of that and starting to get more than a little irritated by the way religions want tolerance but can't give any back. Tolerance is a one way street to organised religions. You only have to look at the parliamentary wrangling over the Equality Bill were religions wanted carve-outs so that they can refuse to treat homosexuals as equal under the law like the rest of the UK population. Why do they get special treatment? The Dutch Reformed Church actively supported apartheid and worked against its removal in South Africa because their interpretation of the bible (stemming from the bible story where Noah gets drunk and one of his sons helps him) was that black people had been designated by God as slaves and second-class citizens.

Unfortunately, while we continue to provide poor secular state education in this country, we are playing into religious organisations' hands and handing them the opportunity to inculcate our children from an early age.

In the same way I have found that if I open the door to someone recruiting for a religion I have to lie about already being another religion to get them to go away. Saying I am an atheist appears to be translate as a challenge to convert me, whereas if they think some other religious organisation has got hold of me, they are quicker to back off.

I read a lot about religion (all religions), got the highest mark in the country in my year for my Religious Studies A-Level (ridiculous ancient boast alert dusts off halo ), and did my dissertation for my legal masters on areas of law which conflict with religious beliefs. The more I read, the more I understand that organised religion's view of tolerance ONLY ever applies to their beliefs and so the non-believers, in extending that tolerance to them, are laying down and permitting those with faith to trample over their good grace and acceptance. I think the Christians call it turning the other cheek. They should try it some time.

YANBU Surely there is an option to not attend as in nondenominational schools where I am you are free to opt out of church services or religious elements of assembly. I would enquire regardless. I consider myself to be a card carrying christian but I strongly object to evangelizing in schools. My DDs school has a Scripture Union club which I think is divisive. I have absolutely no objection to the RE curriculum in schools as it is about information and cultural awareness, not indoctrination. I am sometimes grateful I have a theology degree when unravelling some of the nonsense Evangelicals try to pedal to my DDs.

I would definitely definitely keep him off school, and e-mail to say why you've done it.

Evangelists know that many teenagers are vulnerable and insecure and will spread their tentacles and draw them in.

OP - Been trying to think of a few suggestions for 12 year old DS

Interesting book recommendations [[http://askanatheist.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/atheist-books-for-teens/]] for a 14 year old

Philip Pullman's Dark Materials Trilogy has a strong atheist theme [[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/His_Dark_Materials#Controversies]] - I never liked Harry Potter (am in my 30s) but read this trilogy about five years ago and loved it.

I'm not sure whether this might be a bit young but might be a good introduction [[http://www.infidels.org/kiosk/book976.html]]

The book that I read that crystallised my lack of faith into atheism was Karen Armstrong's The Gospel According to Woman: Christianity's Creation of the Sex War in the West, as a 15 year old girl reading about the christian church (Catholic, Protestant and beyond) I could hardly believe how women had been oppressed and subjugated in the name of religion. Still makes me today.

OP - Been trying to think of a few suggestions for 12 year old DS

Interesting book recommendations http://askanatheist.wordpress.com/2007/08/25/atheist-books-for-teens/ for a 14 year old

Philip Pullman's Dark Materials Trilogy has a strong atheist theme http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/His_Dark_Materials#Controversies - I never liked Harry Potter (am in my 30s) but read this trilogy about five years ago and loved it.

I'm not sure whether this might be a bit young but might be a good introduction http://www.infidels.org/kiosk/book976.html

The book that I read that crystallised my lack of faith into atheism was Karen Armstrong's The Gospel According to Woman: Christianity's Creation of the Sex War in the West, as a 15 year old girl reading about the christian church (Catholic, Protestant and beyond) I could hardly believe how women had been oppressed and subjugated in the name of religion. Still makes me today.

Sorry had to post again because I screwed up my links in the first one!

howabout at your degree in Theology. Did you enjoy it? Would have loved to study at degree level - were there many non-believers on the degree or was everyone vaguely religious?

I suppose I would not be keen about the madras and evangelical Islam name for the day but OOH people do convert to Islam. I do see where you are coming from.

I am measuring it against the church I attend which is evangelical without being remotely cultish. It is very middle class.

Whoah, YANBU. There's some scary shit happens at schools.

OK what the OP is describing is as annoying as the current trend for shitty x-factor wannabe bands to play in schools and hand out free merchandise. By allowing crap-peddlers of any kind to have special Days in schools is endorsing the particular brand of crap being peddled - to the kids, particularly younger ones, its stuff that they are going to accept unquestioningly because the school has fed it to them.
Religion is all toxic bullshit. The 'good' bits of religion are the bits where belief in whatever Great Bunghole you prefer are irrelevant ie they are the good values that are universal. Unfortunately all the major myth brands are incapable of delivering the positive messages - be nice, be kind, be fair - without cluttering them up with rubbish - hate gays, enslave women, kill unbelievers.

AFAIK Buddhists seem to avoid most of that... but they're non-theistic so maybe you don't count them? (any anyway, they don't proselytise)

ScGB

Hear, hear!

Evangelists lurking around impressionable youngsters, in a place where they are sent to learn FACTS?

No. Anything like this in my dc's schools and I will will be visiting. There should be no religion in education, state or medicine.

Makes me laugh how one lesson will be learning about religions that have strong sexist and homophobic tendencies, then the next one will be whassit called, the one where kids are taught that we are all equal etc.

If I wanted my children near such things, I'd take them to the church near ky dad's house. I've flirted with many religions, seen the utter devastation wreaked by some of them. Have studied most of them and whipped everyone's arse in the RE GCSE.
So it's an informed decision from me that I don't want anything so toxic near my dcs.

YANBU YANBU YANBU. I would be pulling people up on this and maybe taking it further.

Any spelling or grammar cock-ups are the fault of FECKING AUTOCORRECT and my stupid ugly tits have caused huge agony in my back and shoulder today so crap typing as well. Bitty. Feck, that is supposed to say night.

Re resources on humanism, I am not aware of anything at the right level for age 11 but there is a lot of stuff out there talking about legal ethics and the place of morality in political philosophy which covers this ground.
My approach with my own DCs so far, more from following their interests rather than any plan, has been to talk about the interactions between religions and look at the history of human thought in this area. They are great fans of Percy Jackson and the same author has an Egyptian and Roman series. They have also studied ancient Greece at school and have Jewish, Sikh and Muslim classmates and so this all gives opportunity for discussion.

It doesn;t matter which faith or belief system is involved - it is entirely inappropriate for a school to hold a day like this. And if parents are not given the opportunity to remove their child fro it, it is going against the school's staturory duties too.