To think RE is a big waste of time

[Himalaya]

I don't mean that kids shouldn't come out of school with a basic knowledge of the world's religions and some skills in philosophy and critical thinking, but to have to take RE classes every week for 12+ years seems like overkill, and a waste of their time.

They certainly don't come out at the end of it with twelve years worth of knowledge, so you have to wonder what is the point. The only point seems to me to be to instill in them strongly the idea that religions deserve a special kind of RESPECT.

Most of the stuff in primary and early secondary is just mush content-wise (but with a heavy undertone of respect).

I think the facts on religion they need to know could be covered in a couple of modules of general studies, or under humanities at KS3 and KS4. It would free up time that could be used for critical thinking, philosophy, study skills, economics, public speaking, sport, creative writing etc....

All subjects are not equally important, and, since time is tight, it is vital to prioritise subjects by their relative importance to the current and future life of the child.

Learning to read English (or whichever is the first language of the country/community you live in) is the most fundamental skill taught at school, wherever you live in the world. Many countries manage very well indeed without teaching any religion at all at school.

Bonsoir it's hard to see how you could write that RE deals with how people used to interact with each other, if you lived in a multi-cultural community.

Bonsoir it's hard to see how you could write that RE deals with how people used to interact with each other, if you lived in a multi-cultural community.

Sorry for double-posting. RE is one of the many subjects that contribute to literacy across the curriculum. Just because you're in RE, doesn't mean you aren't learning English.

Sorry for double-posting. RE is one of the many subjects that contribute to literacy across the curriculum. Just because you're in RE, doesn't mean you aren't learning English.

Iggi, I'm assuming you mean a multi-religious community, not a multi-cultural community.

personally i don't think any subject should be mandatory.

however RE contains:

big 6 religions
racism and ishoos (environment, abortion, rights, etc)
critical thinking skills
inspirational people

op has already reognised the value in some of that...

I live in a multi-religious and multi-cultural community and religion does not influence how we interact with one another. I live in 2011 in a developed country with developed people...

Bonsoir you live in a country where afaik children can't go to school in turban or hijab - I find that incomprehensible.
On the most basic level, I hope you know enough to interact differently with a Muslim friend during Ramadan, or are polite enough to say "Happy Diwali" to the Hindu you work with. But perhaps not.

Bonsoir you live in a country where afaik children can't go to school in turban or hijab - I find that incomprehensible.
On the most basic level, I hope you know enough to interact differently with a Muslim friend during Ramadan, or are polite enough to say "Happy Diwali" to the Hindu you work with. But perhaps not.

I begrudgingly agree that with all the biblical references in English literature, and religion's critical role in world history, there is a role for RE. However, I am suspicious that all the respect for religion being taught to our kids is a clever plan by faith groups (how I dislike that term) and Tony Blair types to create a generation that feels it is immoral or tantamount to racism, to criticise religion.

A proper teaching of the role of religion in the modern world, and throughout history, needs to focus on the inquisition, the crusades, the burning of witches and homosexuals, persecution of the Jews, the Catholic Church's role in spreading death by AIDS and poverty through it's ban on contraception, suicide bombers, female circumcision, religious support for persecution of gays, the role of the religious right in America and elsewhere in crushing the proper teaching of evolution in schools, the subordinate role of women in all world religions... I could go on, believe me.

If RE covered all the wrongs, the misery, the poverty, that religion has brought to the world, then I would support it being taught in a heartbeat. But I fear this will never happen.

LOL iggi - I'm polite enough to have taught mysefl to cook Jewish food for Rosh Hashana/Kippour/Passover - does that pass your good manners test . Perhaps you might like to try to be a little less condescending yourself, while we're on the subject of manners?

"I live in a developed country with developed people" - I would suggest that in terms of rudeness, you started it!

MarshaBrady asked me the question what should we teach rather than what should we.

i think it should be something like this

In primary
-reading, assemblies and creative work based on loads of myths and legends from a wide range of cultural traditions - roman, Greek, Norse, Moses, Noah, Adam and eve, hiwatha, Beowulf, Francis of Assisi, Monkey - journey to the West, Rama and Sita, Esther and Haman, the Xmas story, The Brothers Grimm, hans Christian anderson, Aesop, anansi the spider, 1001 nights, ghosts stories etc...

• celebration of a whole range of festivals (not all of them every year) Chinese new year, Xmas, Yule, Purim, pancake day, Brazilian/caribean carnival, st patricks, Bastille day, eid, divali, us independence day,Swedish midsummer, remembrance/armstice, Easter, May Day, Qing Ming, Japan's childrens day, international women's day, harvest, Halloween etc... Don't make a strong distinction between festivals with religious significance and those without. Don't over emphasise the religious meanings - just learn about and enjoy the different celebrations in terms of what people do, eat, wear etc.. without ascribing motivation where it isn't there.

Junior school - some Philosophy4 Kids and critical thinking - can be applied to all sorts of things
Thinking skills to investigate and test claims, on tv, media, advertising,
supernatural stuff - ghosts, ESP etc..

kS3 - an introduction to the worlds religions as part of humanities.
Stick to facts. What is taught? What do symbols mean? What do people do?
Be careful of generalising of the 'Christians believe..' variety

Then a big course bases on the universal declaration of
Human rights (and the declaration on the rights of the child) a common framework that people of any faith or cultural tradition can get behind.Use the UDHR as the framework for discussing dilemmas for individual, families, business and government.
Where do parents rights stop and human rights begin? How can economic rights be delivered?
Women's rights, sexual freedom, religious freedom it is all there.
You can discus religious views and issues but within a human rights
Framework, gives a common ground beyond - 'respect my opinion' posturing and doesn't privilidge religious views or set the terms of debate on religious terms

GCSE - a choice - religion - for those who want to learn more about theology and belief
Ethics and philosophy - for those who want to further hone their analytic and critical thinking skills.

edgaralanpie - surely it would be a failure to send kids out into the world without literacy and numeracy skills and an understanding of science?

RE covers the big 6, ishoos, critical thinking and
inspirational people as you say. No one doubts that kids need all 4. There is no reason to think they should go together, and every reason to think the RE 'respect religion' approach debases all four.

it would be, however getting kids to sit in lessons = not necessarily teaching them.

that's why i don't think any lessons should be compulsorary.

as already pointed out, most of what you need for life gets covered at primary - the secondary level stuff is more learning how to learn, demonstrating your ability to retain facts, and process them.

I don't see why the set of facts covered by RE are less useful than those covered by, say, chmistry, french, geography...unless of course you have a particular interet in those fields.

It's all about skills these days Edgar, I don't recognise secondary education from the description "set of facts". If it was just a set of facts, I'd agree with you.

the RE 'respect religion' approach debases all four

It's not about 'respect religion' but respecting people and understanding them. It's not about blindly accepting religion. But then you cannot spend lessons criticising religion either - as in many subject areas.

Just because you don't like the moral relativism about religion, doesn't mean children should learn little about it. Yes - increase critical thinking in English. Extend history as a compulsory subject past the age of 14... there are lots of other areas of secondary education which are letting our kids down. RE is not responsible for all that.

What I mean about not criticising religion - take circumcision for instance. I would explain what happens and why it happens - and undoubtedly the kids would respond. I would then listen to what they are saying, lead them through that discussion, put forward any defence or problem with what they are saying, try and extend their deeper understanding. Children might offer a written response being critical of that practice. As long as that is thoughtful and considered then that would not be a problem at all.

It is not about blindly accepting religion, but about showing some respect for practices. Yet I don't feel I can stand up at the front of a classroom of differing backgrounds and say specific religious practices are wrong and immoral.

iggi999 - I am fascinated to know what you could possibly have found rude about "developed country, developed people".

CB - even racism, slavery, the caste system and Dalit-hood, female circumscision, wife beating, forced marriage, homophobia, ethnic/religious cleansing polygamy, cults, systematic inequality for women?

Not saying religion is all bad all the time, but people have and continue to do bad things justified by religion. Why should anyone 'respect' these practices or avoid coming to the conclusion that they are wrong?

I remember doing 'empathy' in history where you had to imagine what it was like to be in the Hitler Youth. It was a useful exercise. But the teacher did not have to pretend to respect the view that the holocaust was justified.

From the dishonest way you presented circumcision ('only some Jews do it and it's mainly cultural anyway') I suspect you try to avoid giving the facts that would lead to kids concluding that there are religious practices that deserve NO respect.

CB - I am sure your lessons are thoughtful and you are trying hard, but the subject you are teaching in makes it impossible to address these issues well.

On circumcision - as I have said it would be ignorant not to know about Isaac and Abraham and what the bris signifies in Jewish teachings.

But none of this is relevant to whether it is right or wrong for adults to remove sensitive parts of a childs anatomy, so to start a lesson dealing with moral questions there is starting in the wrong place.

The place to start is the rights of people over their own body. There are lots of issues here - why can you get your ears pierced as a child but not get a tattoo? Designer babies as donor siblings, medical testing and consent, circumscision, tribal scars (and then on to birth and death issues, abortion, euthanasia etc...)

there are different views on all these issues and students must come to their own conclusions. But if kids come out of a lesson covering circumcision thinking that the primary 'rights and rspect' question is about religion and religious freedom then they have been misled. The primary issue is about the rights of children not to have bits of their body hacked off arbitrarily, and the duty of adults to respect that.

Himalaya - I actually have quite a lot of sympathy for Jewish circumcision of baby boys.

Why? Because Jewish men of my acquaintance whose parents did not circumcise them for the reasons you outline in your last post decided of their own accord to be circumcised as adults (a beastly operation) in order to feel properly Jewish. These are not religious Jews, btw.

Bonsoir -

It's a simple principle though, adults can do what they want with their bodies.

That principle oversimplifies an issue of community affiliation.

Circumcision of babies is very easy. Circumcision of teenagers/adults is very unpleasant.