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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To think RE is a big waste of time

659 replies

Himalaya · 08/03/2011 07:58

I don't mean that kids shouldn't come out of school with a basic knowledge of the world's religions and some skills in philosophy and critical thinking, but to have to take RE classes every week for 12+ years seems like overkill, and a waste of their time.

They certainly don't come out at the end of it with twelve years worth of knowledge, so you have to wonder what is the point. The only point seems to me to be to instill in them strongly the idea that religions deserve a special kind of RESPECT.

Most of the stuff in primary and early secondary is just mush content-wise (but with a heavy undertone of respect).

I think the facts on religion they need to know could be covered in a couple of modules of general studies, or under humanities at KS3 and KS4. It would free up time that could be used for critical thinking, philosophy, study skills, economics, public speaking, sport, creative writing etc....

OP posts:
GrimmaTheNome · 08/03/2011 21:25

I also remember discussing science and religion and how intelligent people who were very successful scientists could also be very committed Christians

Hm, this is one of the things that happens if these discussions happen in 'Religious Education'. Oh yes, of course you can be a scientist and a christian. But does the RE teacher then go on to discuss the world view of the majority of scientists who aren't christians?

GrimmaTheNome · 08/03/2011 21:29

On the whole, we live in a largely atheist culture

I'd say we live in an 'apatheist' culture - hence the last census 70% of people ticking a 'Christian' box when - what is it? - about 10%? of the population are actively engaged.

REteacher101 · 08/03/2011 21:39

Brass you're not saying anything that doesn't already happen in RME.

REteacher101 · 08/03/2011 21:39

Brass you're not saying anything that doesn't already happen in RME.

PepsiPopcorn · 08/03/2011 21:44

I think it would be very unusual these days for an RE lesson to involve telling anyone what to think. They simply discuss the history of religion, beliefs of the present day and so on. A good RE lesson would certainly include discussion, debate and exercises which stretch the mind and make one think about one's own independent opinions.

"so what is needed is to teach children how to think not specifically what to think when it comes to ethical issues"

MillyR · 08/03/2011 21:47

H, I don't know how you would teach the offensive bits of religion in school.

captainbarnacle · 08/03/2011 21:49

Offensive to whom? I don't think RE lessons I know avoid any topic....

MillyR · 08/03/2011 21:51

PP, if you aren't religious (which most UK people aren't in the spiritual sense) how exactly are you being taught how to think in an RE lesson?

Original poster
Himalaya · 08/03/2011 21:52

Bonsoir - i don't think we are disagreeing. I do think it is useful to get to know different cultures, understand where people are coming from, but I don't think there is a particular set of skills that you get from RE for doing that.I am not sure that there is anything to it that is different than 'learning about French people' or 'learning about Trobriand Islanders'

Captainbarnacle - I am not sure what it is you are offended by. Faith and belief are by definition psychological phenomena in that they come from human brains (also cultural and sociological). To say that we all think and do things that can be studied psychologically is not to dismiss anyone as a person or individual.

I don't know how you come to the conclusion that people get their religious beliefs by weighing up the evidence - that's just not the way it works (otherwise others could weigh up the same evidence and come to the same conclusion, and we'd be calling it science)

I am interested in what most people have to say, and am fascinated (but uncomprehending) about how educated believers manage to hold two such contradictory sets of beliefs in their heads at the same time. My powers of empathy don't stretch to the task it is true.

Why is it ok to dismiss belief in tarot, crystal balls and fairies so easily, but not religious belief. Presumably folks who believe in this stuff have equally heartfelt beliefs (and if anything are more subject to intolerance and disrespect)

OP posts:
captainbarnacle · 08/03/2011 21:53

You are not being taught how to think in RE lessons. You are being shown and are gaining a greater understanding of what other people think, and thus are getting closer on your journey to adulthood and working out what you think yourself.

MillyR · 08/03/2011 21:54

CB, the example that was brought up earlier about Leviticus.

It is clearly unacceptable for a pupil to say, "I believe homosexuals should be stoned to death."

I don't know how you would have a lesson that included the material in Leviticus. Which isn't to say it isn't possible. There are lots of offensive ideas in To Kill a Mocking Bird and that is still valuable to study.

alemci · 08/03/2011 21:56

yes offensive is definitely subjective IMO.

for example we look at traditional christianity and Catholisism which do not allow women to be priests and then at the more modern approach to women being church leaders in the Anglican church

we also look at traditional family roles for women and how things may be different today.

Most of the students are not of a christian faith but they are interested and engaged as often these concepts apply in their own upbringing such as women in the family.

Whether war is ever justified is another topic on the sylabus (its late sorry if the spelling is incorrect)

brass · 08/03/2011 21:57

ilovewellies where have I said my DS goes to a church school? Hmm

hissymissy · 08/03/2011 21:58

OP, RS is optional at GCSE! No one has to take it for 12 years!

RS covers all the major religions plus ethics and philosophy. It only touches on Christianity as any other religion. I recently accompanied the RS department on a trip to the Eden Project-they were working on conservation and the ethics of stewardship of the planet and the different viewpoints of religion. Religion is a fact of life. Ignoring the fact that people believe, ridiculing it and belittling it can only cause further problems.

All the RS teachers at the school where I work are agnostic or athiest. They are even mildly critical of overly zealous religious people. They laugh at fanatics. But they respect faith.

This was also my experience of RE when I was at school over 15 years ago. So, YABU. It's not a waste of time.

MillyR · 08/03/2011 21:58

I am not talking about subjective ideas about what is offensive. I am talking about the law of the UK, and things that it is not acceptable for a pupil to say or do in a British school.

MillyR · 08/03/2011 22:00

HM, RE is not optional at many schools. DS will have to do short course GCSE in RE.

captainbarnacle · 08/03/2011 22:01

Grimma - I dismiss religious belief for myself, in the same way I dismiss a belief in tarot and astrology. But that doesn't mean I don't think it is a valid way of life, and part of the present day, because there are millions in the world who follow a belief system. I have had friends who have drawn up my sun/star charts and read my cards. I do not deny an involvement in those practices, but they are not my personal choice.

I think that religious people have weighed up the evidence at some point in their lives, when they are challenged by bad news or they are introduced to new scientific ideas. But they still have their faith. I don't have a faith, but I do admire people (in a way ) who do. It can make your life simplier and yet more complicated at the same time :)

I dislike zealots, whether they are religious or atheist. I do not need to be told what to think by religious or irreligious people. I do not need my own opinions to be dismissed. By all means we should challenge and be challenged on what we think (and we have been today) but to get to that point is a journey. And education in religions is part of that journey.

alemci · 08/03/2011 22:05

they wouldn't get air time Milly or they would get into trouble if they did say something unacceptable. I have worked in a mixed secondary school so I have experience of this.

anyway I think your children will hear comments you may not like out of school at some point. are they teenagers?

MillyR · 08/03/2011 22:05

If we are talking about religion vs athiesm, then the only topic there is if there is a God or not. Yet that seems to be a very small part of the RE syllabus. A lot of what has been mentioned on this thread as happening in RE lessons is about morality and ethics.

Now, while it is interesting to know what religious people think, if you do not believe in God, the ethics of religion are completely irrelevant to your journey into adulthood. You will need to learn about the various different systems of secular ethics and adopt one of those.

So I think there is still a lot of confusion about what exactly it is that RE is meant to be achieving.

brass · 08/03/2011 22:05

CB - non believers acquire understanding and reach adulthood perfectly well WITHOUT religion and CAN think for themselves. Already. Which is why they don't subscribe to religion in the first place.

captainbarnacle · 08/03/2011 22:06

MillyR - it is quite simple. The law of the UK supersedes those specific teachings.

When I studied Alevel Theology and ethics we studied Bible 'gobbits' (short sections) and had to put them in a context of literature, theology and history of the time.

To answer you, if a pupil quoted leviticus as a way to run your life then we would put that quote in a context, and make it quite clear what the discrimination laws are in a UK.

In fact, it is very important to discuss such controversies. As there lies the main causes of conflict between and outside religions.

MillyR · 08/03/2011 22:07

Alemci, I have one at secondary and one at primary. I am sure they will hear inappropriate remarks and the school will deal with it appropriately. I have a lot of confidence in the particular school.

SoulDude · 08/03/2011 22:10

I don't think it's a waste of time, and the effectiveness of it prob. depends on how well it is taught. If done well it inspires critical thinking about the moral issues we face daily. I don't know what's on the curicculum these days, but recognising and respecting your own spirituality should be there.

captainbarnacle · 08/03/2011 22:10

RE lessons are not just about letting kids decide whether there is a god or not - that is a such a small part of it. Plus people's opinions on that subjects can change throughout their lives. I would never ask a pupil to come down definitely on one side or the other.

Of course non believers can reach adulthood without religion, and can think for themselves. Just if they are ignorant of religions then that opinion has been formed in a vacuum. It is much more beneficial if our opinions are formed based on understanding rather than ignorance.

There is nothing big or clever about rejoicing in rejecting religion without knowing much about it.

alemci · 08/03/2011 22:12

thats good. I think your children will learn about different religions not just christianity so it does promote tolerance. I am sure we discussed atheism as well and cause and effect, evolution etc so it is a broad subject.

I have been in some fantastic RE lessons over the years' and i don't think it is a waste of time. usually it would be one single period unless the student was doing GCSE.