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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

to think that you need to stop what you're doing right now and read this article. And I mean need.

253 replies

granted · 08/02/2011 21:05

I posted this on the Politics section but it deserves a much wider audience:

www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/feb/07/tax-city-heist-of-century?commentpage=last#end-of-comments

Quite possibly the best newspaper article I've ever read.

OP posts:
PatriciaHolm · 08/02/2011 23:03

Given the actual policy document Monbiot is referring to says

"Branch exemption will not be available to a company whose business is wholly or mainly investment business, as defined in section 1218 Corporation Tax Act 2009 (CTA 2009)"

I think he's missed out quite an important point.

(It also excludes air transport and shipping companies)

So basically Banks won't be allowed to use this particular tax loophole.

Heroine · 08/02/2011 23:03

Can you see the chain of dominos that falls out? 1. Boris notes that high rents and house prices are causing a poverty-led exodus out of central london 2. tax haven -type status is given to companies locating in the UKs financial districts (read 'London') and all the super rich have properties there...

So.. poor out, rich in and getting richer .. anyone see the congestion charge area also becoming the boundary for a new independant enclave??

timetomove · 08/02/2011 23:04

I know a little about this. The concerns are I think overstated but there is probably something in them. Reasons they are overstated include:

  1. Although it is true that if the rules come in the effect will be to exempt foreign branch profits from uk tax, this also means that companies won't be able to use losses of their foreign branches to reduce tax on profits from their uk operations. There are always 2 sides to tax exemption systems - no tax on profits (good news from the company's perspective) but no tax releif for losses (bad news). In fact I have heard that a lot of industries are thinking they may not opt into the new tax regime because they prefer to retain relief for losses.

2 there will be anti- diversion rules to stop groups taking advantage of these rules by moving certain types of activities outside the uk (similar to rules which already exist for foreign subs).. Not clear as yet how far these measures will go.

3 re the banks, they will probably not be able to take advantage of these rules for years (or some of them anyway). This is because where tax releif has been claimed for foreign branch losses in the past, it will not be possible to benefit from the new regime until tax has been paid on profits of the branch at least equal to the relief previously claimed (or something like that). Many of the banks have had significant losses from their foreign operations so will probably not be able to benefit for years. I think. Maybe.

4 there is already similar exemption for profits from foreign subsidiaries so this is just putting branches and subs on a similar footing. Part of the exemption regime for subs was introduced under labour.

gaelicsheep · 08/02/2011 23:05

Every day I feel more and more despondent about the bunch of autocratic public school morons who are running this country. The Lib Dems are just as bad as the rest of them.

What's that saying? "All it takes for evil to flourish is for good men to do nothing". Sounds about right, if indeed any of them were "good men" to begin with and not out just for themselves.

Heroine · 08/02/2011 23:06

I think the fact that most tories are anti AV (referendum in May) is precisely the reason we need to vote AV in - at least then we might see more support for parties like greens etc because of the lack of tactical voting..

TapselteerieO · 08/02/2011 23:27

Thank you for the link Granted.

I agree, the Lib Dems need to be hit wherever they can for this, local council elections, if they are coming up let the Lib Dems know why you cannot vote for them. (The Tories don't care if we don't like them, especially not in Scotland)

I think there needs to be a united protest against all the cuts and the widening gap between the rich and poor, student fees, privatisation of the forests etc.

Could direct action work against the government and their cronies - if people care about this , want to hit some of the big companies in their pockets would there be a list of companies that support this government? `e.g if everyone cancelled their Sky packages/stopped shopping in the big supermarkets/changed their banks - and let these companies know why...?

TapselteerieO · 08/02/2011 23:50

In the FT today Tory party sees surge in City donations

blackletterday · 09/02/2011 00:13

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!

Oh Jesus Christ what will it take for this country to wake up.

The only kind of demonstrations that work in this country are out and out riots. Look at the demonstration against the Iraq war, did it do any good did it fuck.

God I wish I had the money to leave, that article, everything at the moment makes me want to scream.

All those absolute fucking idiots who are going along with the Tories plan to dismantle the state, "oh we need to cut the deficit" fucking idiots. Ha fucking Ha joke is on you fuckers, you may earn a decent whack and be oh so concerned at where it goes. You are not part of the elite and you will be screwed over royally.

blackletterday · 09/02/2011 00:23

I don't think boycotts have any hope of working, there are too many people who don't actually give a shit, as long as fb and sky are running they will be oblivious.

I cannot believe the amount of people (judging by my fb only) who are totally and utterly oblivious to world events. They seem to live in some kind of bubble.

awubble · 09/02/2011 01:35

Oh it's all so terrible.

More jobs and a more competitive economy, how fucking dare they !

And and and i bet they get paid more than me too and i am just so important ITS NOT FAIR !

When will this stupid country vote for a government that will pay more and give more and stop wealth creators from keeping any more than the minimum wage they pay to their unreplaceable, most important jobs in the world, place would fall apart without them types ! that'll show em.

Forget economic fact, i want fairness ! Labours version and i don't care if it costs more than we have, i want it NOW!

ItsGraceAgain · 09/02/2011 01:58

If I could see this as a genuine means of job creation (jobs above minimum wage, that is), awbubble, I'd be in favour of it. But it isn't. Tax havens are not full of happy, well-fed people living comfortably. They're full of happy, well-fed expats and natives who can't afford to live there - even Switzerland, as Mme Lindt reports on the spot.

Heroine · 09/02/2011 08:20

what is fascinating about the tories is their will to blindly follow policies that destabilise our country, put it at odds with European business culture, and further social destruction - whilst still claiming to believe in 'family values'.

Swathes of the UK whose families and relationships were blown apart by the poverty induced by the Thatcher government (where the same industries that were 'in decline (read 'asset stripped') were not in Europe) Thatcher was agressive, she was naive and an anti-working class snob, but obviously didn't understand the links between poverty, lack of opportunity and disenfranchisement and social breakdown, rising crime rates, drug and other illegal trading, more burglary and crimes against property, more domestic abuse, greater consumption of (abuse level) drinking, increased anti-social behaviour, poor schooling and educational inclusion, higher interest rates, weak and dangerous investments, increased depression and other mental health problems, resentment, resignation and anti-establishment apathy (or to put it another way, if people don't see any point in anything, why should they work hard for someone else to make the money).

These are the consequences of a selfish society, where people who are too poor to help themselves get insular and then do not help their fellow man - this is how we used to be as a country under the conservatives, and we have many legacies to look forward to, including the failure of the big society idea. The old style (and now the new style) tories don't care... well until the higher crime rate begins to affect those with property - and then we get the usual rabid right wing home secretary wanting to punish the poor more for doing what the weeathy are doing with accountants, taking more than the laws will allow - the difference being that the poor are doing it because they have one life and are desparate with all that's stacked against them to make something interesting or mroe wealthy out of it as a result and keep failing because their crime options are more overt.

I have worked for people with senior salaries who use their position to fiddle expenses (not politicians, civil servants), buy computers for themselves, get their friends public contracts etc, which might mean at most a breach of employment contract (but is acttually often just 'clamped down upon' with no punishment) yet if a poor person shoplifts to sell for food or a night out or to pay council tax (as happened to a person I know), imprisonment is a possibility.

We have had several years, yes of cost, but also of investment in so many areas of public life - I live in a 'fringe' area that has slowly and imperfectly, yes, but has moved from being an area that was 'colourful' i.e people fighting in the street on occasion, sometimes a threatening atmosphere, some pettyh crime, some serious crime to being an area with hardly any of the above, even without incomes going up or gentrification, as well as the poorer blinkingly starting to trust measures to get them into top universities, to trust that opportunities, careers advice, better healthcare, regeneration projects etc were actually aimed at them - right as these inititiatives get momentum, the tories shut them down and reverse them - because they are on an entirely different mission.

let's be clear, when conservatives hear that there is a wave of intelligent, well-informed, socially supportive, passionate and communicative, educated working class, lower and mid middle-class people on a path to swamp professional and political society, they get very, very threatened and take measures to push the tide back

If we use an alternative analogy, tories are like a small cell of people protecting a large pot of gold - the number of people who go through public school each year are smaller than the number of those on Unemployment Benefit

granted · 09/02/2011 08:44

awubble, I tink you missed the point.

If you had bothered to actually take your blinkers off and read the article, you would have noticed thatthe whole point was that the wealth creators would be paying less tax - but encouraged by these tax policies to actually move their businesses abroad. So far from creating more jobs in this country - which few on here would object to - it will actually hugely reduce the number of jobs here.

Plus it will benefit only large, probably multinational companies - smaller (and more likely to be UK based) companies will not benfit and in fact will lose out as they will now be competing against bigger companies with unfair tax advantages.

What does it feel like to be the Tories' useful idiot?

OP posts:
georgeorwell · 09/02/2011 08:45

check out zeitgeist movements latest doc on youtube for solutions to this godforsaken mess...its nt a case of leaving as theres no place free of this pernicious, illogical neoliberalism.

georgeorwell · 09/02/2011 08:50

sorry
www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Z9WVZddH9w

onimolap · 09/02/2011 08:53

The Guardian author has a track record of anti-coalition articles. There have been posts here which suggest that this article is also slanted.

Can anyone link an account from someone with a reputation for being unbiassed?

Clytaemnestra · 09/02/2011 09:00

"Can anyone link an account from someone with a reputation for being unbiased?"

Or even refute the points that timetomove has made about why it's potentially an alarmist article, not necassarily actually good for big businesses and actually bringing tax laws for foreign branches in line with what Labour did for foreign subsiduaries?

Or is it more fun to run around with knickers on heads screaming "the sky is falling"?

granted · 09/02/2011 09:42

The Guardian author has a track record for anti-coalition articles. - onimolap.

No shit, Sherlock.

Actually, the author has a track record for Green articles - rather than specifically anti-coalition articles.

What precisely is an 'unbiased' journalist - there is no such thing. Everyone has a bias, whether it is to the right, left or some other bias. The only thing is whether that bias is a matter of public knowledge.

By all means shoot the messenger, if it makes you happy.

It doesn't make the message any less frightening.

Another useful idiot.

OP posts:
georgeorwell · 09/02/2011 09:47

granted dont even reply to onimolap..prob a govt lackey hastily sent to put cat among pigeons once useful debate is started

ambarth · 09/02/2011 09:53

Wine This glass of wine is an idiot of the year award for anyone surprised by this article.

MmeLindt · 09/02/2011 09:54

Actually, it would be interesting to read another point of view. Only be reading a factual opposing view can we be sure of seeing the whole picture. Then I can make up my mind.

From what I have read, this is not bringing UK in line with Europe, it is bringing it in line with Switzerland.

My DH works for an American mulitnational. They are not in Switzerland for the good cheese. They are here because of tax reasons. The subsidiaries in Germany/France/Spain/UK and elsewhere in Europe report to the Swiss office, and more importantly the profits are funnelled through the Swiss office. Where they pay less tax.

What I want to know is: Could a company/bank move it's office to Switzerland, pay the low taxes here and move the profits back to UK? And how would that save jobs in UK?

corygal · 09/02/2011 09:57

It's one thing your worst fears about the Tories coming true - benefits and the NHS binned, etc - but the govt is now doing damage that didn't even feature in our gloomiest predictions.

Shame, shame, shame on Cameron and co.

smashingtime · 09/02/2011 10:04

Good article and great that you posted on here for maximum readership!

No wonder those corporations backed the spending cuts at the end of last year - they certainly are 'all in it together' one big fat-cat tory lovefest Angry

Francagoestohollywood · 09/02/2011 10:04

"We have had several years, yes of cost, but also of investment in so many areas of public life - I live in a 'fringe' area that has slowly and imperfectly, yes, but has moved from being an area that was 'colourful' i.e people fighting in the street on occasion, sometimes a threatening atmosphere, some pettyh crime, some serious crime to being an area with hardly any of the above, even without incomes going up or gentrification, as well as the poorer blinkingly starting to trust measures to get them into top universities, to trust that opportunities, careers advice, better healthcare, regeneration projects etc were actually aimed at them - right as these inititiatives get momentum, the tories shut them down and reverse them - because they are on an entirely different mission."

This is also my perception, as a foreigner who lived in the UK from 1999 to 2007.
It's sad to see that things are and will change.

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