to wonder why non-Christians celebrate Christmas

[MissMashMissMash]

Am not trying to offend anyone here but am interested to know what others think.

I often think that if I wasn't a Christian I wouldn't celebrate Christmas as it wouldn't mean anything to me. I just don't really why people spend so much time, money and stress on something which is meaningless to them.

As it is I don't actually spend much money at Christmas as it isn't about that for me. If it was completely meaningless for me I would just treat it as any other day I think, not sure though what do others think?

[MillyR]

Why do people have to go on about Jesus all the time just because it is the run up to Christmas? Just because it has a Christian name doesn't mean the rest of us want to hear about Jesus.

Can you imagine if Pagans did this? And every Wednesday was taken up with people going on about Odin being nailed to a tree, and we all had to wear a sword every Wednesday in case we were unprepared for Valhalla.

[TheCoalitionNeedsYou]

I don't agree. The only thing that matters is what people do. I don't care what justifications they give themselves. The only way that Jesus teachings effect the world is through the actions of people.

Do you think that if there was a sudden revelation about the life of Jesus that overturned Christian dogama that this would make ANY difference to any of the main Churches?

Jesus has fuck all to do with Christianity.

[TheCoalitionNeedsYou]

It's the same fallacy that you see when Creationists attempt to attack Evolution by attacking Darwin, or if Marx was revealed to be, I dunno, a queue jumper or something terrible that would discredit Communism.

It doesn't matter WHO came up with theories/philosophies or even very much what the theories/philiosophies are.

Implementation is everything.

[POFAKKEDDthechair]

It is not the same at all. Because I am not trying to undermine Christianity by trying to discredit Christ.

Human beings fuck up most great teachings. That is why we struggle with the basic motivations like greed, individualism and rivalry in society, however much as indviduals we try to act against them. That's why capitalism is the main economic and social struture in the world, which forces most of the world into poverty. Christ spoke out against all those things [as did Buddha]. No one wanted to bloody hear it. We are capable of doing it, as human beings, but we usually fail. that doesn't make the fact that it is the right thing to do, what Christ taught, less important at all.

[TheCoalitionNeedsYou]

It is the same. The point is that the teacher is irrelevant to the message and the message is irrelevant without action.

Implementation is everything.

[POFAKKEDDthechair]

That is your opinion. If people don't want to follow Christ's actual teachings then, well, that's not Christ's fault, is it. It is one thing, to acknowledge what his teachings are and then fail [as we all do] It is another to pretend his teachings were something entirely different [which a lot of christians do] It is not more important. It is just more visible to you.

[MillyR]

I don't see anything wrong with Christians developing their religion in a way that is contrary to the teachings of Christ. The needs of people now are more important than what someone said thousands of years ago.

[TheCoalitionNeedsYou]

POFAKKEDDthechair - Of course it's not Christs fault. He's been dead for 2000 years. Literally nothing happening in the world today can be his fault. Good or bad.

[POFAKKEDDthechair]

well obviously. so it is human beings. And as we know they are rather contrary.

[madhairday]

What would be the point though of 'developing their religion in a way that is contrary to the teachings of Christ'? What would that religion then look like, or be? Probably resemble SGB's oft quoted misogynistic homophobic everything-phobic power crazed bucketheads.

As it is though, thankfully, Christianity is all about Jesus, and many, if not most people who profess this faith do endeavour to follow his teachings. We fail, of course. But it's what we are aiming for. And this 'religion' (hate that word) is not about power bases and oppression, just the opposite in fact. Freedom and justice.

TheCoalition, I'd disagree that nothing in the world is to do with Jesus, but then I'd disagree that he's been dead for 2000 years :)

Good posts Pofakked.

I'm perfectly content with celebrating Christmas as both a tacked-on-to-winter-festivals celebration of Jesus' birth and a happy family time with Santa and Presents. Why not both, it makes for a Jolly Happy Time.

[StuffingGoldBrass]

Madhairday - because the point of religion is social control, otherwise it would have died out completely by now or be as much of an eccentric minority pursuit as crop circle studying or UFOlogy.

[POFAKKEDDthechair]

yes but there are groups within christianity who are aware of this SGB, and who fight it from the inside, and believe Christ to have abhorred all that the church has become.

[classydiva]

I don't believe, but I celebrate it, gotta get the kids prescents and eat tins of Roses! Any excuse.

[madhairday]

I suppose it could be argued that the point of religion is social control, SGB, looking at what has been done in the name of religion through the ages.

However, it's certainly not the point of what Christianity is at its roots. The central tenets are not control based, but freedom based. And as pofakked says many groups in Christianity actively work for this both within and without the church. I think that Christ would indeed abhor much of what 'the church' has become but not all. There are increasing numbers of individuals and churches that seek to practise their faith in the spirit of the original founder.

I do seem to have this argument going round in circles with you a lot SGB. I guess we are both assured in our positions so will keep on having it. Never mind, makes for some fun debtate

[StuffingGoldBrass]

I'm well aware that there are plenty of Christians fighting for social justice and doing really good things both in terms of engaging with causes in the wider world and in addressing some of the negative aspects of their particular myth system.
I suppose what bemuses me is why people who are aware of the serious faults in their myth-peddling organisation expend so much effort trying to change that, when it would surely be easier just to find yourself a new imaginary friend and fix up some less toxic mythology (am aware that some people do feel a need for a supernatural 'buddy/guardian' of some kind andthat's not necessarily a bad thing).

[tigitigi]

YANBU - happy for people to celebrate a midwinter festival and family get together if they want but why call it CHRISTmas.

[cory]

tigitigi, perhaps for the same reason that we Christians use the name of a pagan goddess for Easter Which is simply that this is the everyday term that everybody uses.

Or do we have some kind of greater right to that?

[TyraG]

I have not read any of the responses, but if you look at where Christmas originated, it was initially a Pagan celebration (Yule) and the Christians decided to take a page out of their book and adopt a holiday there.

Quite frankly no one knows when christ was born they just picked the month because it's supposed to be the darkness before the light, the light being christ.

Basically you can trace every holiday back to Pagan rituals.

[tigitigi]

Cory - we call it Easter because it is generally celebrated in and about April - or Eoastermonth. The celebrations of Eoaster had generally died out by the time Christianity had become well established in the UK. Besides in most languages the name is some form of Paschal which is definitely not based on Easter.